The day of the Warrior

[seasoned]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

 

[stone_dragone]

I can't speak of the national martial arts situation in the late 80's (I started in '94), but I can imagine that your sensei was a man of incredible foresight. I understand that it was the mid to later '80s that karate tournaments began to incorporate more "protective restrictions" including more padding and less contact. Since the tournaments were becoming more popular, schools would (my guess) train more towards tournament success and less for the traditional art.

If todays state of the arts is any indication of what he saw, MMA and non-traditional "reality" based arts have taken away the mystique of the average person who might be interested in marital arts...instead of seeing Chuck Norris kick a bunch of biker's asses, they see Chuck Liddell bringing the pain (for the record, I am a biker who is also a fan of Chuck Liddell).

Then again, I could be way off base. It happens more often than not.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place.

I think that this is true. I'm pleased to say that pockets of resistance are there though!

 

[Cruentus]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

I don't know, but I don't think the "day of the warrior" has passed. There are a lot of soldiers (military) and sheepdogs (from cops to your neighborhood watchman) out there that live a warrior ethos.

I do think that there has been a decline of wierdo behavior in regards to traditional arts. There seem to be less people out there trying to make up for a low self-concept by trying to fullfill a warrior archtype through the acting out of a faux tradition, as if they are in another time and culture (of which their mutation of it never really existed at all). You know...guys like these: http://www.goldendragondojo.com/instructors.html

But, I think that this is a good thing... :idunno:

C.

 

[stone_dragone]

. You know...guys like these: http://www.goldendragondojo.com/instructors.html
C.

I hit the link and involuntarily snickered immediately...I need to go back to it and actually look at the page...

 

[Sukerkin]

You're not alone with the s******ing, Stone .

We've had a few discourses on the nature of the 'Warrior' and they ran into difficulties as there was something of a schism over just what a warrior is.

For example, I have a particularly idealistic notion of what makes a warrior, as contrasted to a fighter or a soldier. I don't believe that it's a very realistic notion I hold but, to me, it's very real distinction. Others think that it's not a term restricted merely to martial subjects any more, whereas, in complete inversion of this, others consider that anyone who studies and uses weapons is a warrior and noone else is etc etc.

Is the day of the warrior passed?

Our governments would like it to be so - a docile, passive, popuation is much more easily regulated. However, I do feel that it is an attitude of mind that is part and parcel of being human for some of us and so, as long as people are born that have that martial spark then the age is never trully gone.

I should clarify that by this I don't mean just training in the martial arts. I do that and I consider myself to be much more a gardener than a warrior (altho' I am equally happy with a sword or a trowel in my hand ). There are people still that have a militant soul that is only satisfied when following a martial path and they continue to be born.

EDIT: Darn it, the swear-filter mistook part of one of my words above as being an offensive term used to describe a black person! The word is a more English variant of 'snickering' - I'm sure you'll work it out ... political correctness gone mad it is

 

[FieldDiscipline]

EDIT: Darn it, the swear-filter mistook part of one of my words above as being an offensive term used to describe a black person! The word is a more English variant of 'snickering' - I'm sure you'll work it out ... political correctness gone mad it is

Thats some filter.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments.

You Sensei had great insite. Many changes have happened in what was called the Martial Arts from the eighties on but many had happened from the sixties to the eighties also.
Tournaments became highly padded with "friendship" being pushed upon the compeditors not the "beat the hell out of him and show him who is better" attitude. Tournaments where once about which school produced the best fighters and about punishing your opponet. In the eighties the lets not hurt anyone attitude became popular and the where all friends also.
As for the warrior well there are still some on the tournament circuts but not nearly as many as befor.
Has all this been for the best? I have my personal opion but it is my thoughts on what was once a proving ground to test your physical condition, reflexes, and ability compared with with what I see today. Now don't get me wrong there is plenty of speed and reflex out there today and some great technitions but way to much of what i see in tournaments today is slop.
As for the dojo's, well, most of the schools do not have extreem physical workouts today and are focused more on getting mommy to bring in little johnny and jane than they are in teaching people to survive getting punched in the face. Rank is now being handed out in many places to people who would not have lasted the first day or week in the old schools. Also there are way to many schools being operated today by people whith rank and titles that they bought or where given and never earned.
:soapbox:

ok I'll let that go for other threads.

Your Sensei had a true vision of what was to come

 

[seasoned]

Yes, some of you are correct, warriors can and do come from many walks of life. My post is in reference to my Sensei and his interpretation of what he saw coming back in the late 1980s. In the late 50s to the early 60s there was an influx of military people with wartime disciplines and a knowledge of Martial Arts that they acquired in there off time from bases in Okinawa, Korea and Japan. Many people when thinking of a warrior think of a killing machine and they are not wrong, but my Sensei looked past that to the core of the person. He was a pioneer in his own right and opened up his dojo in the early 60s. By the mid 80s he sadly decided to drop out of formal training and gave up his dojo to teach a select few at his home. In the 60s when I started, his was the only dojo in our city and if he would have stayed he could have made a lot of money, but by the mid 80s there were many schools. Some of these dojo’s were a product of the movie fad Martial Arts and others from the wave of Karate that sweep across the United States from the west coast where Martial Arts had a good foot hold. He was a very honorable person that felt quality was more important then size of school but soon found he could not compete with that newer mentality of “give them what they want“. Also with his military teachings of discipline, honesty, integrity that he felt meshed well with Martial Arts was disillusioned with this new breed. This is strictly an observation on his and my part having lived through it and to see first hand with our own eyes. His words in the late 80s was that the day of the warrior was passing and sadly enough having been there myself, and here now, I must agree with him. For those old warriors that are still out there, pass the word, keep the faith, and fight the good fight.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.

 

[terryl965]

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.

Nice post Could'nt rep you all out.

 

[seasoned]

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.

Thank you Brian for your input. I have one of those warriors in training at this time. My son graduated from the Army Basic combat training at Ft Benning Ga on Sep, 6th and is currently in Officer Candidate School for the next 3 months. He spent 12 years in Martial Arts and was in Law enforcement before making the commitment to serve our country. I will agree he is a warrior. The Army training has not changed, and we still have the best fighting force in the world. But my Sensei made a statement years ago pertaining to changes in attitude that the Martial artists in that day were beginning to demonstrate openly at public events, and the way some were conducting themselves in and out of their DoJo. As “Field Discipline” put it so nicely there are still pockets of resistance out there pertaining to “the day of the warrior has passed“. Maybe my Sensei stands corrected and he should have said that the day of the warrior spirit has passed. Either way there definitely have been some changes that have taken place from what I remember. Once again thanks for your input.

 

[chinto]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

If by that you mean that people are training and even being trained with basicly only sport in mind, yes.. that is true unfortunently.

However, there are a few dojo's out there that DO NOT train primarily for sport and that the advanced students at least remember that traditional martial arts are about combat survival, and protecting yourself and your family and friends.
'Warrior' I have heard defined as an "individulistic fighter who does not fight as a team member like a soldier" as a "self reliant man who will fight if he has to" even as "any one in a military or similer role where they may have to use violance to protect some one else or themselves."

so you can see that its aparantly a loose term. But I agree that there are a lot of people out there who think that martial arts should be about sport, and sportsmanship, and perhaps even have the combative part removed and leave only art.
I guess I am old school, Martial means military or combative, and that is why martial arts were invented and developed. so I will resist any 'sportification' of the style I train in, and train and keep what is handed down to me as a viable and effective system of self defence that happens to have a lot of other benifits.

 

[Danny T]

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

I believe most use the term warrior incorrectly. A warrior is a person habitually engaged in warfare. Many of us have added additional aspects to being a warrior like a code of conduct, or being a part of a caste or class of their own. Ethical codes are utilized in order to ensure the warrior class is not dangerous to the rest of society. Warrior codes usually have common features and value honor in the form of faith, loyalty, and bravery.

Why, that could describe most of the world’s militaries. No I think the days of the warrior are far from being over. Pertaining to martial arts especially in America there are still many good schools teaching and training warriors everyday just as there are others which do not.

Danny

 

[Cruentus]

You're not alone with the s******ing, Stone .

We've had a few discourses on the nature of the 'Warrior' and they ran into difficulties as there was something of a schism over just what a warrior is.

Ultimately, these discussions end up boiling down to what one defines as a warrior. And the problem (as I believe has been discussed in previous threads) is that the word "warrior" is emotionally charged. People, particularly personality types who study martial arts, have a lot of emotional/identity investment with the idea of "warrior." What I find more often then not is that people adjust the definition of the word "warrior" so that they can be included in the definition. Or, they adjust the definition so that NO ONE in this day and age can be a "warrior," because if they can't be one, then no one can.

Anyway, this is just my observation. So, to answer the original question, one needs to clarify (without there being any "right" or "wrong" answers) what being a "warrior" means to them first.

That said, I believe that a warrior is someone who is willing to, without hesitation or question, put themselves in danger to fight for the betterment of mankind. This type of person is, by nature, selfless to a degree, and does at least try to follow a morality and ethos fitting of the kind of person who would do such a selfless act. There is just something inside this kind of person that makes them run towards the danger to help or to fight (metaphorically speaking), and this kind of person couldn't see themselves doing anything different.

Now that I have defined what I think a warrior is, I think that there are many people who are warriors. Soldiers and Cops are usually safe assumptions, but not all soldiers and cops are actually willing to put their *** on the line in a selfless manner, so it isn't always as obvious as it seems. There are plenty of community watchdogs who are warriors as well, but they are even less obvious.

But, I do believe that warriors exist...

So, really, before one answers

 

[Cruentus]

Thank you Brian for your input. I have one of those warriors in training at this time. My son graduated from the Army Basic combat training at Ft Benning Ga on Sep, 6th and is currently in Officer Candidate School for the next 3 months. He spent 12 years in Martial Arts and was in Law enforcement before making the commitment to serve our country. I will agree he is a warrior.

Just wanted to say that you should be proud of your son. Since we are talking about warriorship, Ft. Benning being the home of the Infantry and Rangers still maintains a high standard of training, and definatily breeds warriors. [Hell, it's hotter then ballz in the summer, and that by itself will make a 'warrior' out of anyone who can manage to not be a heat casualty! :lol: ]

But the army has a clear set of values that defines the kind of person (by the army standard) that a warrior is. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage are the values that every soldier is supposed to uphold. This mirrors nicely the 7 values of Bushido, ironically.

So, arguably, our military has the best program to date as far as breeding "warriors" is concerned. With that, I just can't agree that the "warrior days" have passed...

I think they are alive and well.

That's just what I think, though.



C.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

So, arguably, our military has the best program to date as far as breeding "warriors" is concerned.

I'll argue with that one :wink1:

Seriously though, I agree with Cruentus, you have much to be proud of. We live in difficult times and those are superb values.

 

[TheOriginalName]

I hope that the day of the Warrior is not over.
From my understanding the Samurai code is:

• a sense of justice and honesty
• courage and contempt for death
• self-control
• sympathy towards all people
• politeness and respect for etiquette
• sincerity and respect for one's word of honour
• absolute loyalty to one's superior
• a duty to defend the honour of one's name and guild

To me, if you hold these type of values close then you are a warrior.

A warrior to me is

• The guy who finds your wallet in the street and returns it with the cash still there, without asking for reward.
• The guy who pulls over on the freeway to offer help when your car breaks down.
• The friend who stands beside you through thick and thin

So, just in my opinion, the day of the warrior is not over - it's just changing.

But then again, this is just my thoughts on the topic.....

 

[Cruentus]

According to Inazo Nitobe, the 7 precepts of bushido are:

Justice
Courage
Benevolence
Politeness
Sincerity
Honor
Loyalty

Just for those interested....

 

[seasoned]

But my Sensei made a statement years ago pertaining to changes in attitude that the Martial artists in that day were beginning to demonstrate openly at public events, and the way some were conducting themselves in and out of their DoJo.

First let me say thanks to “Cruentus” for the input, and yes I am very proud of my son. He braved 115 degree temperatures at Benning in full battle gear. They definitely know how to tap that warrior spirit
Please let me set the record straight since I initially started the thread about a statement my Sensei made some 20 years ago. Above is part of a post I wrote stating his feeling pertaining to the reason behind his statement. He was discharged from the US Marine Corps in the late 1950s and as “Cruentus” stated pertaining to values of Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor Integrity, and Personal Courage and how they mirrored nicely with the 7 virtues of Bushido. My Sensei had, demonstrated and also passed on all of these to his students. In the 1950s, and early 1960s there weren’t a lot of dojo’s around and tournaments were far and few between so we trained within our own dojo or traveled from time to time to other cities to train at other dojo’s. Please don’t take me wrong because I am not trying to diminish in any way the training of today, but training was very hard and unforgiving in those days. I will say with all honesty that we trained like warriors. We had sparring only a few times a week because with no protective gear on, you could and did get hurt. Our blocks were sharp because if you missed and got hit it was not their fault but yours for not blocking, or getting out of the way. We were traditional and Kata was first and for most along with drills. But when sparring day came you had better have your game on. My Sensei did not put up with any horse play or disrespect toward each other or toward him and if there we any issues they were always handled on the sparring floor and that is where the truth was taught. Classes were 2 hours long with no socializing during class. From the time you bowed in until the time you bowed out it was all business. All the virtues of bushido were drilled into our heads, because you can’t train to hurt someone and have a bad heart or attitude. Both were found out early on and no one over green belt was guilty of this. We trained hard, sparred hard and most importantly we were all friends. This is what we did and this is how we trained but more importantly this is what we looked for in other dojo’s. This was the standard and when you came into the dojo this is what you adhered to. It wasn’t about your money or dues, no contracts, no court action against each other. There were no sayings like “karate is for everyone” because it wasn’t, you either had it or you didn’t. Was it harsh? I don’t know, you tell me. Would it fly today? His statement in the 80s was “ the day of the warrior has passed ” . He based this on what he saw within the Martial Arts community at the time. Was he right? Was he wrong? That was then and this is now.