The College Scam, Higher education isn't worth the cost. - John Stossel

[Bob Hubbard]

The College Scam
Higher education isn't worth the cost
John Stossel | July 7, 2011

What do Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Mark Cuban have in common?
They're all college dropouts.
What do Richard Branson, Simon Cowell, and Peter Jennings have in common?
They never went to college at all.
But today all kids are told: To succeed, you must go to college.
Hillary Clinton tells students: "Graduates from four-year colleges earn nearly twice as much as high school graduates, an estimated $1 million more."
We hear that from people who run colleges. And it's true. But it leaves out some important facts
That's why I say: For many people, college is a scam.

Read More: http://reason.com/archives/2011/07/07/the-college-scam

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It's an interesting article, and makes a number of points I've been saying for years.

Now, some trades, you need college.
Medicine for one.
I really do expect that the guy cutting into me had some formal training, and didnt just spend 4 years in his moms basement with a copy of grey's anatomy.

But, do you need college to be a gardener? A mechanic? A brick layer? How about a plumber, or electrician, or office manager, or department store assistant?

Nope. Most of those careers you can learn on your own, through trade associations, or on the job.

I'm self taught at photography. Had a few mentors over the years give me some tips and tricks, but not a single class room hour in any institute of higher education.
I did go to school for programming. Learned BASIC, PASCAL and MODULA2.
I learned them in a day when the in-demand languages were FORTRAN and C.
I did go to school for computer repair. Learned on 8008 systems in a day when the 80386 was king.
I learned how to identify dodgy resistors and capacitors and replace them, in a day when the guys in the field would just swap out the dud parts, not repair them.
I was also told repeatedly by instructors and advisors that "No one makes money writing video games". Pretty stupid now huh? At the time though, gaming was only a multi-million $$ industry, not the huge multi-billion dollar one it is today.
I was told that BASIC, with it's 11 statements was the programming language of the future. Anyone program in BASIC lately?
I was told that the idea of people communicating over a computer network was a fad, and would never take off. I'd written a BBS program at that time, and BBS's as many remember are the precursors to forums such as this one.

In fact, most of what my trusted advisors and instructors told me back then in the stone age 90's, turned out to be wrong.
Funny how Star Trek got more right than they did.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Penn & Teller also took a look at the College idea.

I don't agree with some parts, but my experience says they're pretty spot on in a lot of areas.


My view is, go if you want to go, go for the experience, go to broaden your mind, go if the degrees mean something to you, and def. go if you need the classes and paper for your career path.

Don't go if you're pushed to, or if your big aspiration is to drive a truck, punch a retail job time clock, or just get by.

And keep in mind that many a Starbucks barrista, garbage collector, and burger flipper has a degree.

 

[billc]

I heard Stossel interviewed thursday morning, he usually hits the radio circuit the day of his show, and he pointed out the huge amounts of remedial work a lot of entering freshmen have to do because their high school didn't get the job done. He makes a valid point that the high school education needs to take care of the basics for life, reading, writing and basic mathematics, the way it used to.

Great videos by the way. John Stossel is always great and Penn and Teller are great, I just wish they wouldn't throw in the topless women in all of their shows. Not that I mind that it just can distract from the show a bit.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

People graduate from high school unable to balance a check book, read or write.
College grads still often are unable to balance a check book.

One discussion I had with someone involved in the industry stated 'You go to college to show you can be trained.'.

One potential employer told me that "a liberal arts degree in basket weaving" would make me more employable than 2 years of actual real world on the job experience.
(I'd been working as an on-site admin the previous two years, had Comptia and Microsoft certifications, yet wasn't qualified for an entry-level tech job because I lacked at least a 2 yr degree in anything. The 'basket weaving' comment is a quote from the recruiter)


My experience has been kinda like this:

 

[Carol]

Here's a counterpoint. Do you *need* a degree to be a plumber? No. But be the plumber with the degree and you stand a far better chance of being the plumber that other plumbers call boss. My plumber has a BSME, and he has impressed me to the point where I have recommended him to people all over the Boston area. (If anyone in MA/NH wants a REALLY good plumber for fair rates, lemme know )

I don't think anyone should fall in to the trap of thinking college is about education. Its not. One of the best universities in the area for Computer Science and Engineering is UMass Lowell, where I attend as a continuing ed student working on my 2nd Bachelors. My C/C++ was harder than a friend who took a nearly identical class at Yale. So why is Yale revered as this hallowed hall of educational rigor, while no one outside of New England has heard of UMass Lowell? Because at UMass Lowell you study with rank and file brainiacs trying to get a job at Raytheon...at Yale you study with brainiacs who are kids and grandkids of old money, corporate magnates, and international uberlords. College isn't just about education, its about networking. Success in every field is tied to WHO you know, not just what you know.

My advice is...go. Go before kids and car payment and credit cards tie you to a job and tie down your options. Go so your lack of education doesn't get between you and what you want to do, or where you want to be. Go because regardless of what you do for a living, you are undeniable proof that you are a person that takes on a years-long commitment and sees it through to the end, even if things get tough, even if its no fun. And once you're there, work it. Maximize not only your education, but your networking as well. Challenge yourself and push yourself as far as you can.

Unless...you really don't want to be in college. If you really don't want to be there, then stay home. Please. The rest of us that are making the sacrifices, paying the cash and busting our butts don't need you and your "issues" in the classroom.

 

[granfire]

People graduate from high school unable to balance a check book, read or write.
College grads still often are unable to balance a check book.

One discussion I had with someone involved in the industry stated 'You go to college to show you can be trained.'.

One potential employer told me that "a liberal arts degree in basket weaving" would make me more employable than 2 years of actual real world on the job experience.
(I'd been working as an on-site admin the previous two years, had Comptia and Microsoft certifications, yet wasn't qualified for an entry-level tech job because I lacked at least a 2 yr degree in anything. The 'basket weaving' comment is a quote from the recruiter)

Sadly, there is a point to it that you are one up on the latter if you have a degree in something that isn't even job related.
Seen it before.

However I have to agree that there are a lot of professions out there that pay pretty damn well and you do not need a degree. but you gotta actually work and get dirty.


(and LOL on the movie clip: that's not a movie often referenced!)

 

[crushing]

I haven't read the Reason article yet, however, I did search it for "bank" and didn't find any results, so it must not go in to any details as to the who set us up the high college cost scam.

 

[billc]

One of the problems that lead to higher cost is the fact that the government gives out grants and backs the student loans. Knowing that students will get money from the government allows them to raise college tuition beyond almost any other business would be able to do.

http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0598/voices0598-hauptman.shtml

From the article:

At the very least, however, the tremendous growth in the availability of
federal loans has facilitated the ability of both public and private colleges to
raise their tuitions at twice the rate of inflation for nearly two decades
without experiencing decreases in enrollment or other clear signs of consumer
resistance. In particular, it seems evident that private colleges could not have
stabilized their share of total enrollments over the past two decades without
the tremendous expansion in federal loan availability.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Yeah, uh, what Carol said.

 

[Sukerkin]

I have three degrees, one of them a Masters and I earn less than an uneducated mate of mine who works a production line building diggers. Now I'd rather have my job than his but some days I get depressed by the essential dichotomy between educations costs (of all types) and the supposed rewards.

To give another example, one of the Directors of the company I work for quit his Directorship to go and be an electrician and he makes more money at that!

EDIT: When I say uneducated I meant "not college educated" rather than "never been to school" :lol:

 

[crushing]

EDIT: When I say uneducated I meant "not college educated" rather than "never been to school" :lol:

I think the correct term is "differently educated."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I can make the same amount ($7.25/hr btw) in either of these:

Entry level burger flipper at any local fast food place.
Cashier at any local supermarket or convenience store.
Deli clerk at the supermarket
stockboy at any department store, supermarket of convenience store.

I can also make the same amount at these:
Tier 1 help desk at several local ISP's.
Cable installer.
Wiring installer.
Customer Service Rep at a local bank.
Photographer at Sear or JC Penny's portrait studios.
Computer repair tech at several local shops.
HTML coder at a local web shop.
Graphics Designer at same shop

Now, compare the first batch to the second batch. You need to know more for batch #2.
What all of #2 has in common is that I was told I was NOT qualified to do those jobs, because I lack a college degree in -ANYTHING-.

My resume:
3 years Windows NT network Admin for medium sized manufacturer.
A+ Certification.
Windows 95/98 MCP's from Microsoft. (expired)
Adobe Photoshop certification (PS5, expired)
A binder of other certifications in countless products, systems and OS's.
10+ years real-experience as a Linux Server Admin (guess what OS is on this server?)
10+ years web design, graphics design, and photography.
Certifications in HTML, Javascript, Perl, CSS, PHP and MySQL.
And more.

But, unless I have a 2 yr degree in anything, even "history of the mushroom", I'm deemed unqualified to do what I'm already doing at a 95% pay cut.
It's hilarious.
It's comical.
It's insulting.

Now, I've thought about going back to school. There are subjects I'm interested in, things I'd love to dig into.
Plus, college girls are cute and it's a great place to meet potential models.
But, unless I were to decide to go in to one of the fields that absolutely needs the paper trail and associated knowledge, it doesn't seem worth the time-sink, and huge bills.

I've also thought about going for an MBA. Still am. Right now, prereqs and $$ are the hold ups.

 

[granfire]

well, get the 2 year degree in sculpting with potato salad...

no, I mean something you like. Apparently it does not matter if it is about the chemical composition of toe jam...

But yeah, this is absolutely infuriating.

 

[Kacey]

As a teacher, I am tired of being told that all students need to be prepared for college. There are too many students going to college because it's "expected" who don't want to go, who want careers better suited to on-the-job or trade school training, who end up with a useless - or worse, only partially completed - degree, and a boatload of debt.

This is a post I made on another site where the same question came up, in the context of paying for your kids' education or your own retirement:

One hundred years ago, it was a rare student who went to secondary school (7th grade and up). Those who did not attend secondary school learned a trade and went to work. Fifty years later, completing high school became the expectation; again, those who did not attend further education learned a trade and went to work. Programs to teach trades abounded in the school system. Now, it is the expectation of the government that all students - interested or not, prepared or not, appropriate or not - complete college. Programs to teach trades have been massively cut to expand college prep programs. Federally mandated testing drives school curricula in Math, Science, English, and Foreign Language. Classes that teach practical life skills, such as Home Economics and Industrial Arts (Shop), and those that teach life activities such as PE, Art and Music, are being dropped willy-nilly in the rush to prepare all students for college. Many districts are dropping PE entirely, or requiring students to complete their PE requirements outside of school at their own expense. The extra-curricular activities that keep many students in school - sports and clubs - are being dropped for financial reasons. This leads to many students enrolling in college who don't want to be there, who are not prepared mentally or emotionally for the rigors of college.


This is not the fault of the colleges entirely, nor is it entirely the fault of the schools. It is a societal issue - the idea that all students must attend college, regardless of interest or ability - which is driving this problem. Colleges are businesses, and their business is to get students in the door. Businesses use a college degree as a screener to sort applications - in many cases, the nature of the degree is not relevant, only the applicant's ability to complete college. At some point, society as a whole will need to return to the time when completing high school meant that the student was ready to either go on to further education or enter the world of work - and students could pick which one they wanted, and take classes appropriate to that choice. But that is no longer the case - the push is for college as a be-all and end-all. The increasing number of students applying to college who are in need of remedial instruction is due largely to the increased push for everyone to attend college whether they are suited to it or not. Providing these classes is expensive. Other factors affect cost as well - not the least of which is the cost of providing financial aid for a variety students; colleges provide much of their aid themselves, by increasing costs to build the funds they use for loans and grants, as federal and state funding for student aid steadily decreases... as more students needing significant aid apply, overall costs rise so that needy students can attend - the cycle is accelerating. Add to this the preference for "desirable" colleges, causing students to bypass less expensive options like community colleges, and the preference of many employers for a 4-year degree, the less-expensive options are also becoming more expensive as their population drops.


This leads back to the original concern: parents helping students pay for college because the costs are rising so high. If society as a whole is going to say that all students must go to college, then society needs to step up to pay for it. In the meantime, programs for service jobs - like plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. - are harder to find, and are also becoming more expensive, as their rarity means they can pick and choose their students the way colleges used to do. Fixing this problem is going to require a societal change - and given the current financial state of the country, it needs to happen soon. The average debt of graduating seniors is over $23,000 (look here), and can rise as high as $300,000. If parents can help - great! But in many cases, the costs are too high for any but the richest to afford.

 

[Tez3]

Richard Branson left school after struggling with dyslexia, Simon Cowell was privately educated and did go to college through I think you mean university in the OP.
I think our education system is a bit different from yours so it's hard to make comparisions. Most of our colleges are vocational where you learn trades, very few are academic other than Sixth Form Colleges which is where students do their A levels in preparation for university.
Children here sit O levels at 16, if they are academic they will stay on at school or go to a Sixth Form college to sit A levels. Otherwise they leave school at 16 either starting work or going to college, more often than not it's both at the same time. Hairdressing for example you will go to college one or two days a week and work in a salon for the rest of the week, same as building trades, carpentry, metal work,catering, car mechanics etc. Education up to 18 is free, university costs unless you are Scottish.

 

[Sukerkin]

It's a bit of an aside to the topic of the thread, despite the clips purportedly being about university education, but that Penn & Teller programme was well worth a watch.

I am stunned that things have come to such a pass in the institutions of learning and, if the accusations in the programme are even half true, I am now a little more sympathetic to the positions laid out by such outspoken MT members as TF, DB or BillC.

I didn't particularly agree with the assertion that I don't have the right not to be offended but I think that what I am talking about is my requirement for certain standards of politeness whereas what P & T were talking about was silencing those who hold opinions different to my own.

I also was struck by one of the comments made which essentially boiled down to the fact that all the 'diversity' ******** was as deeply racist and insidious as the KKK. Not only does it promulgate the venomous view that the only 'demographic' that does not have a right to their opinions is the one typified by 'white folks' but in fact it is insulting to the very people it purports to defend - paraphrasing, "You are too weak to live with freedom" is a wonderfully pithy way of stating the problem.

 

[Sukerkin]

Tez raises an interesting point above viz what do American's mean when they talk about 'College'. In Britain, as Tez said, college (or Sixth Form) is where youngsters go for those two years between leaving school at 16 and entering university at 18, if that is their goal. During those two years, taking 'A' Level courses, they used to be expected to gain sufficient experience with the tools of self-study, written expression of understanding and learning to be able to handle the academic environment - I say 'used' because it is not the case any more as standards continue to slide in the name of 'inclusivity'.

A two year course is not really a degree in the British system. Altho' they are sometimes referred to as Ordinary Degrees, taking graduation after two years rather than working the extra year or two for a 'proper' Honours Degree is considered tantermount to a fail. It's not as straighforward as that of course, as there are two year courses that award HNC or HND {Higher National Certificate/Diploma) that some people sometimes refer to as degrees as well {tho they are not, despite what my missus with her HND in Photography says :lol:}.

 

[Carol]

Richard Branson left school after struggling with dyslexia, Simon Cowell was privately educated and did go to college through I think you mean university in the OP.
I think our education system is a bit different from yours so it's hard to make comparisions. Most of our colleges are vocational where you learn trades, very few are academic other than Sixth Form Colleges which is where students do their A levels in preparation for university.
Children here sit O levels at 16, if they are academic they will stay on at school or go to a Sixth Form college to sit A levels. Otherwise they leave school at 16 either starting work or going to college, more often than not it's both at the same time. Hairdressing for example you will go to college one or two days a week and work in a salon for the rest of the week, same as building trades, carpentry, metal work,catering, car mechanics etc. Education up to 18 is free, university costs unless you are Scottish.

Different distinctions in the US. Over here, a University is only an instituion with full doctoral programs, where a college may be any degree-granting institution, including a subsection of a university. My first Bachelors is from Berklee College of Music, which (only) offers Bachelor's degrees. My second will be from the University of Massachusetts, which has (multiple) doctoral programs. Trade schools aren't colleges, unless they grant degrees.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

For full disclosure, I spent time at D'Youville College, and Erie Community College, as well as 2 stints at Bryant & Stratton technical institute.
I learned more in high school.
My advisor at D'Youvile was out of touch with the state of the industry, the classes and equipment at ECC were woefully subpar even for that day, the B&S program 1st pass was the outdated cpus, and the second pass I had an major issue with my instructor only being 1 chapter ahead of the class in the text book (he was learning as we went to teach us).

I also had a major argument with him on some basics of C programming, during which in class he insisted that Dennis Ritchie had it wrong, and that he was right.
Lets just say publicly embarrassing one's instructor is not a good way to ensure passing grades.

This isn't to say I think the programs are bunk, but my experiences have been rather, unpleasant.
Still, if you've got the desire, want the degrees, go for it.
But me personally, as a businessman, I value your ability and experience more than a piece of unrelated paper.

Though I do sometimes with I had the time to go and work on a doctorate in history.