The College Scam, Higher education isn't worth the cost. - John Stossel

[elder999]

I hit $50k back in 2002-2003.
High school diploma, no college degree.
Right place, right creds, right ability, etc.

I know a few people who passed that chart.
I know people who should be higher who are stuck lower too.

A degree -can- help.
But hard work, demonstrated ability, experience and opportunity grabbed gets you further, in my opinion.

And my conversation with the marine biologist was probably 1984-'85 at the latest. I'd made 60k-no technical degree.

There's some truth in what you have to say, but sometimes just getting into the right degree program, and then getting (not necessarily earning) that degree is a leg up.

Really interested in what John has to say about there being MORE to the reality, though.....

 

[Makalakumu]

You're right. Clearly the graph demonstrates the outcome of the Nubirian conspiracy to make us all falsely believe that a college degree leads to a higher paying job, by ensuring that a college education leads to a higher paying job.:lfao:

Wow, you have cognitive dissonance about this too! :lfao:

In other words, just how is reality FAR more complicated than that conclusion?

Is the degree something that people with high ability in other latent abilities earn? Could those latent abilities be contributing to more success in our society?

Are all degrees worth the same? This graph assumes an average that may be misleading.

How much does the non-educational training in conformity and obedience matter when compared to latent intelligence when it comes to income?

 

[Makalakumu]

Really interested in what John has to say about there being MORE to the reality, though.....

OTOH the training we receive in institutions might also directly correlate with higher income regardless of the actual "education" that occurs. For example, imagine an authority figure taking a 500 piece puzzle and throwing one piece at an individual and then telling that individual a story about the picture on the puzzle. A properly "trained" individual would accept that story without question. AND if they were really highly trained, they may even use their "training" to invent justifications for the story they were told and then pass these justifications off with the miasma of authority these pieces of paper confer. Individuals who are trained like this would be very valuable for certain kinds of jobs in our society.

Even if the graph is correct, reality is more complicated.

 

[Sukerkin]

I am so tempted to throw in a 'humerous' response about Marketing/Business or Sociology/Psychology degrees at this juncture ... but I shall be good ...

...

...

Ooops! :lol:

 

[Senjojutsu]

Tough times for young lawyers.

Duplicitous & double-dealing law schools lying and falsifying facts to future duplicitous, double-dealing, lying lawyers??
I am shocked... SHOCKED I SAY!

My heart is like an alligator... and those are crocodile tears running down my cheek.
:uhyeah:

-------------------------------------------------

Is Law School a Losing Game?
By DAVID SEGAL Published: January 8, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all 1

IF there is ever a class in how to remain calm while trapped beneath $250,000 in loans, Michael Wallerstein ought to teach it...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Record Low for 2010 Law Grads: Only 68% Have Jobs Requiring Bar Passage
Posted Jun 1, 2011 7:57 AM CDT
By Debra Cassens Weiss

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...rads_only_68_have_jobs_requiring_bar_passage/

Law graduates in the class of 2010 have set a new record, and it’s not a good one...

 

[elder999]

OTOH the training we receive in institutions might also directly correlate with higher income regardless of the actual "education" that occurs. For example, imagine an authority figure taking a 500 piece puzzle and throwing one piece at an individual and then telling that individual a story about the picture on the puzzle. A properly "trained" individual would accept that story without question. AND if they were really highly trained, they may even use their "training" to invent justifications for the story they were told and then pass these justifications off with the miasma of authority these pieces of paper confer. Individuals who are trained like this would be very valuable for certain kinds of jobs in our society.

Following what appears to be a trend in your once clear thinking towards overcomplication, I invoke the pancake bunny.

I mean, honestly, was it the move to Hawaii, or what, John? :lfao:

Even if the graph is correct, reality is more complicated.

Indeed. One has to wonder how many of those 80,000 bartenders with college degrees referenced in the Stossel article are actually making $80k or more a year-it is more than possible, after all.

First off, for some of us, the value of work lies in more than the paycheck-I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment. For the scholar, the counselor, the teacher (John), the minister, and, one would hope, the police officer, their calling has more to do with interests, passions and yes-“calling” than pay, and whatever training or education they had to attain to work in their field of choosing has inestimable value beyond monetary compensation for employment.

Indeed, I’d wager that a high school chemistry teacher could make far more employed as a chemist in industry…..or running a state of the art meth-lab. :lfao:

And, speaking of high-school: upon my return to academia, in spite of my having already earned a BA in religious studies, I had to take an examination for basic composition.

Because of the shoddy quality of high school education circa 1980, I had to prove that I could write coherently in my native language. It was an admission requirement.

This is the real reason for the devaluation of college education-that it truly has become an extension of high school, especially for freshman year, and the fact that it has become far too specialized: I know far too many of my fellow engineers who can calculate the “most efficient” method for processes, and yet will simply forget the man-machine interface-the fact that someone has to actually operate the damn thing-and come up with something that is nearly physically impossible to operate. College can’t-or often, doesn’t-teach common sense, or creativity.

Likewise, when I got the job at the nuke plant, it was because I passed a basic science and mathematics test-one that, in my estimation, anyone with an adequate high-school education should be able to pass well enough to be hired-yet not everyone can. Okay, perhaps I more than “passed,” and the test didn’t present any particular difficulty for me, but some skill with algebra, physics and chemistry isn’t too much to expect from a high school graduate, I think.

Getting back to the idea of “value” though, while I haven’t earned a damn penny with my religious studies degree in nearly 35 years, it’s education that I value, and has come in handy-it’s still an area of study for me, and I still contemplate post-graduate work in the field, from time to time. As for my engineering skills-while many of them could be attained in other ways, there is no place but college for me to have attained others.

I dunno if using Bill Gates or anyone who is so clearly exceptional as an example is doing anyone any justice, either. If you think you’re the next Bill Gates, well, you’re probably wrong. If you know you are, then college, what you’re told, and everything else really won’t matter.

 

[Makalakumu]

Following what appears to be a trend in your once clear thinking towards overcomplication, I invoke the pancake bunny.

I mean, honestly, was it the move to Hawaii, or what, John? :lfao:

Oh please, you understand what I'm talking about in that quote. You know what it's like to work in an institution.

As far as my once clear thinking goes, well, I have been finding that I know less and less the older I get. I've deconstructed my knowledge back to kindergarten. Hurting others = bad. Stealing = bad. Lying = bad. Etc... Who knows if I'll know anything when I'm long in the tooth?

Indeed. One has to wonder how many of those 80,000 bartenders with college degrees referenced in the Stossel article are actually making $80k or more a year-it is more than possible, after all.

First off, for some of us, the value of work lies in more than the paycheck-I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment. For the scholar, the counselor, the teacher (John), the minister, and, one would hope, the police officer, their calling has more to do with interests, passions and yes-“calling” than pay, and whatever training or education they had to attain to work in their field of choosing has inestimable value beyond monetary compensation for employment.

Indeed, I’d wager that a high school chemistry teacher could make far more employed as a chemist in industry…..or running a state of the art meth-lab. :lfao:

I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment as well and I agree that the chart in question certainly does not take this into account. Have you ever wondered what a society would look like that ascribed economic value to those qualities?

And, speaking of high-school: upon my return to academia, in spite of my having already earned a BA in religious studies, I had to take an examination for basic composition.

Because of the shoddy quality of high school education circa 1980, I had to prove that I could write coherently in my native language. It was an admission requirement.

This is the real reason for the devaluation of college education-that it truly has become an extension of high school, especially for freshman year, and the fact that it has become far too specialized: I know far too many of my fellow engineers who can calculate the “most efficient” method for processes, and yet will simply forget the man-machine interface-the fact that someone has to actually operate the damn thing-and come up with something that is nearly physically impossible to operate. College can’t-or often, doesn’t-teach common sense, or creativity.

Likewise, when I got the job at the nuke plant, it was because I passed a basic science and mathematics test-one that, in my estimation, anyone with an adequate high-school education should be able to pass well enough to be hired-yet not everyone can. Okay, perhaps I more than “passed,” and the test didn’t present any particular difficulty for me, but some skill with algebra, physics and chemistry isn’t too much to expect from a high school graduate, I think.

Back onto the topic of this thread, well, I think you are pointing your finger in the right direction, but there is still more to it. The degrading quality of education rests on a set of assumptions about the individual that might not be true. For example, did you know that the unique spark of your creativity, of that special essence that you think is you, is actually just a product of your experience. Therefore, things like free will and self determination are illusions and are therefore mutable by an outside force that controls your environment and experience. You really are just another brick in the wall!

If that underlying assumption was incorrect, what would happen to an institution that droned on with it into perpetuity?

Have you ever heard of drapetomania? When an institution is dying, it pathologies rebellion. You might find this ODD, but we do this today. School, as we know it, is dying my friend.

School is like a tunnel that narrows the farther you go into it. This pushes humans into pasty cogs that can't see much opportunity outside of their skill sets. Perhaps the nature of the human mind runs opposite of this trend?

Getting back to the idea of “value” though, while I haven’t earned a damn penny with my religious studies degree in nearly 35 years, it’s education that I value, and has come in handy-it’s still an area of study for me, and I still contemplate post-graduate work in the field, from time to time. As for my engineering skills-while many of them could be attained in other ways, there is no place but college for me to have attained others.

I dunno if using Bill Gates or anyone who is so clearly exceptional as an example is doing anyone any justice, either. If you think you’re the next Bill Gates, well, you’re probably wrong. If you know you are, then college, what you’re told, and everything else really won’t matter.

The autodidact, like yourself, is the exception and not the rule. How much does a dynamic mind that soaks in knowledge and seeks understanding matter? The chart that Empty Hands posted will never capture things like this in terms of economic value. The piece of paper isn't necessarily tied to the abilities of our minds. Like I said before, it's more complicated.

 

[Makalakumu]

And, just to perpetuate my current shtick, check this out. :ultracool