The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).

geezer

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This is why I lose interest in the striking art many years ago. In the striking art training, I just don't know how to put my opponent down on the ground without hurting him. I can throw my opponent down 100 times today and tomorrow he will still be my training partner. If I knock my opponent down just once, I won't be able to see he tomorrow.

I can do this 100 times on my opponent daily and he will be OK. As long as I can move my opponent's gravity center to be outside of his base, I don't really need to throw him, the rest is just the gravity. I don't know how to apply this method in any striking art.

 
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geezer

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What you say above is a problem. On the other can it is possible to train without hitting too hard. We used to train in space rented at a boxing gym and FWIW, I asked one of the old boxing coaches about this problem. He said, "Well you can pull your punches and not hit so hard, but never pull back on your speed".

So you can train angles, speed and timing without destroying your partners. And lighter punches still mess with your opponents balance, and ability to respond, etc. And of course, there is always bag work for practicing your power.

Still, I'm getting "up there" in years, have some health issues (cardiac), and don't really want to eat a bunch of punches. Guess the truth is I don't really want to fight anymore. At least not hard. Maybe that makes me a wimp. Funny thing is, these days that doesn't bother me so much! :)

I saw a window decal on the back of a pickup earlier today. It said:

Soy mandil籀n ...癒Y Qu矇!

Cracked me up! So maybe I should get one that says something like:

Soy pendejo flojo... 癒Y Qu矇! :p
 

Tony Dismukes

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But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters?
I don't have any personal experience with top WC guys like Boztepe, but based just on watching guys like him on video and my personal experience training with @yak sao , I would say that no, WC practitioners don't hit as hard as equally trained boxers or Muay Thai fighters in the same weight class. Not even close.
Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?
Well ... it depends. You certainly can learn to hit hard enough to hurt someone and get their attention using WC punching methods. As I understand it, the whole game plan is built around being able to land a barrage of quick punches for cumulative effect, while suppressing counters. If you pull that off, you could rattle someone's brain enough to win a fight. My suspicion is that this originated with a strategy of pre-emptively overwhelming an opponent at close range at the start of a fight. (Like sucker-punching someone with 10 rapid punches rather than 1 haymaker.)

Problems ... there are a few.

First, despite the legends about Ng Mui and the art being created by a woman, it's very hard for a small person to develop the sort of power that a tough heavyweight would need to respect using just WC body mechanics. Not saying it's impossible, but you would have to be very, very, very good.

Secondly, if you aren't able to pull off the whole "overwhelm them with volume" strategy (which can happen for a number of reasons), then you're stuck in a position of trading individual shots with someone who hits a lot harder. That's not a good situation to be in.

I think WC style punches can be effective in the right time and place. I'll mix them into my sparring opportunistically. I'll see an open line where I can slip in 2-3 quick close range linear shots rather than going for a power shot which might take longer and get blocked. (If I was better at WC, I'm sure I'd find more opportunities to land those.) The mistake, IMO, is relying on those particular body mechanics all the time. You need the ability to mix it up. And you need the ability to threaten with legitimate knockout power. If you watch good boxers, they will use lighter punches, medium punches, and knockout power punches in combination as the moment demands.

I think a large percentage of WC practitioners have never experienced working with actual fighters. They don't understand the power that these guys can generate or how much impact they can take and still keep moving forward. It changes your perspective.
 

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All the WC practitioners I've trained with had a lot of experience in other arts. My JKD instructor was also a WC guy, as well as a purple belt in BJJ (at the time, probably higher by now) Another WC guy I'm friends with also trained and competed in boxing and kickboxing.

So I dunno, when they used to hit me with WC punches it hurt as much as any other good fighter's punches. There's also the person you run into on rare occasion who have "heavy hands". It's like their hands are made of rocks or something.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?
I am a firm believer in the man, not the style. That said, in my limited experience sparring WC guys, they are fast with hands and can advance quickly to attack the center line. They tend to be vulnerable to hooks and longer range attacks that come from diagonals. Circling punches seem to work well. Dont fight their fight, stay off the center line and keep moving lateral to their center front. I am not saying they arent dangerous, just giving my two penny insights gained from taking a few shots up my middle.
 
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geezer

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There's also the person you run into on rare occasion who have "heavy hands". It's like their hands are made of rocks or something.
Had a si-dai like that. Not a whole lot bigger than me, but he had thick bones from head to feet and big boney fists. He was a funny, goofy guy but could hit really hard. Even our sifu, Leung Ting remarked more than once about his "heavy punch".

Sadly, I heard that he was killed in a robbery in San Francisco many years ago. Heavy hands and a brave heart are no match for guns.
 

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?
My sifu says exactly the same thing. One of the biggest things lacking in wing chun he sees is power in their punches.

One of the reasons I personally don't see a lack of sparring as THE problem with wing chun, lack of a decent punch (or solid stance, or stability through the body, or limited to no ability to do footwork) is a more fundamental problem than lack of sparring. All the full contact sparring in the world won't fix things if you can't even punch to begin with.
 

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My wing Chun Sifu could hit really hard. Felt like what I imagine sticking my finger in a light socket would feel like. He had a full-contact bout with a Muay Thai fellow, and won by knockout.

So I dunno. I think its the person, more than the style.
 

Flying Crane

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?
Sometimes it seems like everybody has the answer how to fix what everybody else is doing.
 

Oily Dragon

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

The real issue is the lack of this, in Wing Chun sparring.

 
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geezer

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My wing Chun Sifu could hit really hard. Felt like what I imagine sticking my finger in a light socket would feel like. He had a full-contact bout with a Muay Thai fellow, and won by knockout.
If you can't show the video, it didn't happen! :p:p:p



...on the other hand, by that standard, I was never born. :(
 

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Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

Your friend's speculation sounds more like the result of overall poor training.
 

drop bear

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According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

Yes and no.

It shouldn't be that much because you can punch hard by moving in to position throwing a ton of shots and hopefully catching the guy off footed.

And so it is that body connection and forward motion that makes the shot.

But for some reason that doesn't really seem to happen.

Mabye because you achieve that with really good footwork. And I don't think wing chun footwork is all that great.

Amateur boxing is a good example how people footwork their way towards effective punching.

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility",
In another forum, someone put up a WC video. Since in that video, both persons are always standing, that video doesn't receive good comment.

Can you create a WC video that you can "put" your opponent down ASAP? How?
 
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geezer

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In another forum, someone put up a WC video. Since in that video, both persons are always standing, that video doesn't receive good comment.

Can you create a WC video that you can "put" your opponent down ASAP? How?
Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?

Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution.

The instructor's response was "Where's your finishing technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems. There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.
 
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