The Anti-Bullying Action Idea thread

[shesulsa]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss AND ESTABLISH some real-life tools that are NOT martial-arts related - tools we can give parents, teachers and would-be victims that begin a chain of responsibility. The idea here is those who harrass, repeatedly insult and abuse others are held accountable as are the people who are supposed to respond to incidents such as these and who are failing daily.

Can we start with school-age bullying?

I'm a fan of written records. I have been hawking written reports for some time in my self-defense and martial-arts classes. I'm certain teachers get verbal reports and they are looked upon as little more than "tattling." I'm thinking of coming up with a form that can be filled out and submitted to administrators. My concern is, obviously, that ANYONE would be able to fill these out and falsify accounts.

Any thoughts, folks?

 

[Steve]

If we're talking about school age bullying, I personally believe that where kids are involved, we should approach the situation from the perspective that bully's and those who are bullied are different sides of the same coin. In other words, there is a lot of attention given to the "victim" of bullying, but a child who is a bully is as much in need of coaching and social skills development to give them more productive outlets for whatever is compelling them to bully others.

It's my personal belief that bullies are often ALSO bullied by others, similar to how kids who are abused often become abusive parents. Until, that is, the cycle is broken.

Discussions like this often, I believe, miss the forest for the trees by focusing almost entirely on preventing bullying from the perspective of children who are bullied.

 

[lklawson]

I admit to being conflicted in this area.

On the one hand, even verbal bullying can do great amounts of emotional and psychological harm to a child.

On the other hand, if we shelter our children from "bullying" how are they to be equipped to deal with it when they enter the real world?

I'm not saying to tell the kid, "Just grow a set."

This is a very complex issue.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I don't see sheltering kids from bullying to be valuable, either. I do, however, believe that there are things that many people understand intuitively. If you subscribe at all to the idea of emotional intelligence, there are some people who naturally charismatic and social. And there are some who are not. Whether it's environmental, where childrens' self esteem is damaged in their home or some other way, or as a result of a medically diagnosable condition such as Aspergers, autism or ADHD, we're dealing with kids who lack skills.

The great thing about emotional intelligence is that, unlike IQ, it can be improved. There are concrete skills that can be shared with kids. And through coaching and appropriate feedback, kids can overcome the lack of skills that lead them to either bully or be bullied.

It isn't sheltering kids. It's arming them with the tools and skills that most children have intuitively.

 

[WC_lun]

I think we do the best to teach kids about proper behaviour and compassion for others. If they do not know these things, then they'll be at a disadvantage in life. If they understand such things, there is no desire to hurt others in order to feel important.

 

[oftheherd1]

It would be wonderful to be able to explain to bullies that they are doing wrong things, and convince them we can show them a better way. Then have them studiously work on becoming better people. Perhaps that can be done. But I suspect it is a long term project best taken on by professionals. I'm not saying it should not be done, but that I don't think that was the focus of what shesulsa was looking for.

I think she was looking from the point of the victim. I don't see parents of a bully coming to any of us as MA, and asking for our help in turning a bully into a productive citizen. Normally it will be parents or family of victims. While we are working on bettering the bullies, we must give victims, and society, some coping tools as well. Certainly one of them should be identifying and getting help for bullies. But if I understand the gist of the question, it is what is to be done for victims in the interim?

It is indeed a complex question. I think some people are just not good a coping with agression. We can teach them fighting skills, but they may not wish to use them. It is just not part of their makeup to resist physically. Some will have such hatred inside that as soon as they learn something that can be really injurious to a bully they have suffered under, they will try to inflict maximum harm on that bully. Others will carefully learn what we teach, to include ways to get out of a situation without fighting, and only use fighting skills when absolutely necessary. How do we tell these kids apart.

As MA, do we place ourselves at risk of litigation from hurt bullies, or hurt victims who don't successfully use what we have taught?

Have we helped society by only teaching MA as a way to cope with bullies? Should we teach them how to talk to parents/family about being bullied? Do we show them ways to get school officials interested in their problem?

Truely many facets to this. I think it is good to come up with ideas here. Ideas that may help everyone involved.

By the Way, shesulsa, if I have mischaracterized what you are trying to do, correct me.

 

[Steve]

It would be wonderful to be able to explain to bullies that they are doing wrong things, and convince them we can show them a better way. Then have them studiously work on becoming better people. Perhaps that can be done. But I suspect it is a long term project best taken on by professionals. I'm not saying it should not be done, but that I don't think that was the focus of what shesulsa was looking for.

I think she was looking from the point of the victim.

Once again, where kids are concerned, they're all valuable, and we have a vested interest in ensuring that as many of them grow into adulthood as stable, productive members of society. That includes both the bullies and kids who are bullied, too.

I don't see parents of a bully coming to any of us as MA, and asking for our help in turning a bully into a productive citizen.

And that's a damned shame, but does that make the children any less important?

Normally it will be parents or family of victims. While we are working on bettering the bullies, we must give victims, and society, some coping tools as well.

No one has suggested otherwise. As I said before, they're two sides of the same coin. Regardless of how it manifests, we're looking at a situation where kids are lacking basic social skills that will allow them to interact more positively with others. And that's exactly what they are: skills.

Certainly one of them should be identifying and getting help for bullies. But if I understand the gist of the question, it is what is to be done for victims in the interim?

And I vehemently disagree with you that the bullied are the only victims. I also disagree with you that addressing the needs of the bullies fails to help kids who invite bullying. I believe that the biggest reason that many anti-bullying campaigns fail is precisely because they consider only half of the equation.

It is indeed a complex question. I think some people are just not good a coping with agression. We can teach them fighting skills, but they may not wish to use them. It is just not part of their makeup to resist physically. Some will have such hatred inside that as soon as they learn something that can be really injurious to a bully they have suffered under, they will try to inflict maximum harm on that bully. Others will carefully learn what we teach, to include ways to get out of a situation without fighting, and only use fighting skills when absolutely necessary. How do we tell these kids apart.

As MA, do we place ourselves at risk of litigation from hurt bullies, or hurt victims who don't successfully use what we have taught?

Have we helped society by only teaching MA as a way to cope with bullies? Should we teach them how to talk to parents/family about being bullied? Do we show them ways to get school officials interested in their problem?

Truely many facets to this. I think it is good to come up with ideas here. Ideas that may help everyone involved.

I agree. So, then, why are you so quick to dismiss my ideas? Very, very strange to me.

 

[WC_lun]

We as martial artist are not religion or moralist. We are just people. Perhaps the greatest gift we can give children and some adults is self confidence. It is difficult to bully a confident child, because they do not fit easily into being a victim. Many bullies do so as a replacement for self confidence. I don't believe preaching at kids will do much. leading by example seems to offer better results from what I have seen.

 

[lklawson]

I don't see sheltering kids from bullying to be valuable, either. I do, however, believe that there are things that many people understand intuitively. If you subscribe at all to the idea of emotional intelligence, there are some people who naturally charismatic and social. And there are some who are not. Whether it's environmental, where childrens' self esteem is damaged in their home or some other way, or as a result of a medically diagnosable condition such as Aspergers, autism or ADHD, we're dealing with kids who lack skills.

Let me give you a bit of background that I don't usually slip into martial arts discussions. Obviously, I'm a martial artist. I've studied multiple styles from Eastern to Western, and teach several different martial skills. I'm a huge self defense proponent and I advocate for self defense ranging from mild and mostly non-injurious grappling up through deadly weapons including firearms.

I also come from a very religious family. My Father is a Preacher and a former Missionary. "Turn the other Cheek" along with various "how to cope with bullies" skills from the 80's was drilled into me from my early years.

My wife is a Board Certified professional Counselor here in Ohio, working with mostly very low income, Court ordered, sometimes addicted, sometimes damaged (literally), and other "disadvantaged" people. She's studied all of the modern behavior theory and loves to use it as dinner conversation.

Finally, I am one of those parents who has a kid like you describe. My son has ADHD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD). He has to take meds for both but, of the two, his Anxiety meds are the most important. His "deal with bullies" skills suck and he has been bullied on multiple occasions. And, yes, when it's your kid, the first instinct is to go Captain Caveman (which is, of course, counter-productive at best).

I paint this picture not to claim that I'm an expert in the field but to say that I've given more than my fair share of thoughtful consideration to the topic and have "been there, done that." I have experience that gives me a perspective which many people simply don't have.

The great thing about emotional intelligence is that, unlike IQ, it can be improved. There are concrete skills that can be shared with kids. And through coaching and appropriate feedback, kids can overcome the lack of skills that lead them to either bully or be bullied.

Not entirely, no. Teaching these skills can help the victim of bullying, yes. I agree. However, it does not always stop the bullying because there are different kinds of bullies with different motivators. It is a trap to try to pigeon-hole bullying behavior into one or two causes such as low self esteem or reenactment of bullying done earlier to the now-bully. Some bullying, for instance, is done to show off and score social points with the group. It's an important part of human psychology that we automatically want to create groups of "us" and "them." Bullying can sometimes be an expression of that. Another cause can be simple Male Dominance. Yes, even prepubescent boys have enough testosterone and other male hormones to trigger this sort of behavior and have yet to learn (if ever) the appropriate filters to their behavior.

There are other potential reasons, of course, but I don't want to belabor the point with minutia.

It isn't sheltering kids. It's arming them with the tools and skills that most children have intuitively.

I honestly don't think "most children" have these skills intuitively. I agree that some do, but my experience is that they are the exception rather than the rule. Most children can learn these skills if they're simply modeled for them in example by others. Some need concerted and deliberate instruction.

But, again, this only addresses the victim side of the coin. Of course it is much harder to address the bully because they usually see nothing wrong with their behavior, particularly while they are engaging in it. That's part of the psychology of it; it seems perfectly natural to them and to the rest of the group.

Further, much of the bullying occurs at school. This is obvious but I bring it forward to point out that the first line of defense are the Educators. Yet my experience is that these Educators are woefully unprepared and inadequately trained in this area. They can barely identify bullying and the "stock" responses they have (are allowed to have) are, frankly, stupid. They often take the form of telling the victim to not look like an inviting victim (notice I didn't say "teach them how") or to just avoid the bully. This rather comes across as telling a rape victim to try not to "dress that way" and to simply avoid rapists. <eyeroll>

Now, I can't say that it is entirely the fault of the Educators. It is a very complex situation and every bully and victim has their unique permutations. Further we are continually asking our Educators to do ever more with fewer and fewer resources (have you seen what the Continuing Education requirements are in your State?).

So, back to the OP question of what non-martial artsy things can we do for the victim and what can we do to ensure that those who are supposed to stop it are held accountable?

First, teaching anti-victim skills is wonderful and all but the people who need the instruction have to be identified. While anti-victim skills for bullying are honestly similar in many ways to standard anti-crime-victim skills, the student is vastly different. Frankly, most of the kids who need these skills aren't going to learn well from traditional instruction. If they did then just seeing it modeled for them would have been enough in most cases. But it's not. It takes an instructor with specialized skills in working with these kids who don't intuitively "pick up" those skills when they are modeled for them. Occupational Therapists are a good starting point, as strange as it sounds.

And what of "holding accountable?" This is another tough question. First, maybe we should ask if it is fair to hold them accountable? Have we provided them with the tools and the training? Do they have the appropriate personality and disposition to use those tools? What tools should we give them anyway because "just avoid the bully and his sycophants" is kinda like saying, "sure, just agree to ostracize yourself from the group; come by and pick up your trench coat and a hi point in a few years."

Bullying is like Ogres and Parfaits, there are lots of layers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

We as martial artist are not religion or moralist. We are just people. Perhaps the greatest gift we can give children and some adults is self confidence. It is difficult to bully a confident child, because they do not fit easily into being a victim. Many bullies do so as a replacement for self confidence. I don't believe preaching at kids will do much. leading by example seems to offer better results from what I have seen.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. Modern research seems to indicate that the most common reasons for bullying are more often social or group dynamics in nature, not in low self esteem/confidence. Further what identifies the victim is very often not the confidence level of the victim but some other quality which clearly differentiates the victim from the bully (and also often the bully's group of supporters). Bullying is less often a one-on-one encounter that is in isolation but usually includes a group of supporters for the bully. Finally, just "leading by example," ie:, modeling the skills is often not enough. A major part of why bullying is effective is because of the social isolation that it creates for the victim.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Cyriacus]

How to fix bullying in schools:
Increase supervision of the children.

Just My opinion, of course.

 

[oftheherd1]

My goodness, I seem to have touched a nerve. Have you had some personal experience you could share that might help me and others understand where you are coming from? I did not intend, nor do I think I did, imply that no effort should be expended to change bullies into productive members of society. But I do believe that those bullied must receive the first help. They are pretty much legally blameless, yet are being preyed upon. That must stop as quickly as possible, and they must be protected.

The bully is pretty much legally at odds with the law, and is always on the lookout for prey. You almost seem to want to ignore that aspect of a bully/bullied situation. I am sure you don't, but to me at least, you sort of come across that way; advocating more for the bully than the bullied. Their 'crime' must be stopped as quickly as possible, so as you suggest, we don't allow the production of more bullies.

Once again, where kids are concerned, they're all valuable, and we have a vested interest in ensuring that as many of them grow into adulthood as stable, productive members of society. That includes both the bullies and kids who are bullied, too.

I never said different. But I still say the victim needs protection first. Then we can address the bully and why the bully is acting that way. Given a robber, I am sure while any of us may wish for some road to rehabilitation, none of us, including you or I, would wish to make that a higher priority than the justice due the victim.

And that's a damned shame, but does that make the children any less important?

All children are important for sure. But I don't understand why it is a shame parents of a bully wouldn't come to us as MA, asking our help in turning their little bully into a useful citizen. Maybe you have training and experience I don't have in dealing with that type of personality. I would not wish to give a bully more effective tools for bullying, without being sure those tools wouldn't be used inappropriately. Would you give classes only for the bullies on how to change their attitudes? I would not feel qualified to do that, believing that should be a job for a professional in behavioral problems.

No one has suggested otherwise. As I said before, they're two sides of the same coin. Regardless of how it manifests, we're looking at a situation where kids are lacking basic social skills that will allow them to interact more positively with others. And that's exactly what they are: skills.

I also stated that their are many facets to the problem. I am not so sure they are two sides of the same coin. If you mean that those who become bullies do so because they have themselves been made victims of bullying, I could see that as a possibility sometimes. Certainly I can also see it as a symptem of a lack of feelings of self worth. I am not so sure I would see being bullied as the most common reason for the lack of feelings of self worth. Maybe, as I said, you have training and experience I don't have. I just don't see it as our job as MA, to teach bullies how not to be bullies, as I think that requires a lot of training and experience in human behavior, most of us would not have.

And I vehemently disagree with you that the bullied are the only victims. I also disagree with you that addressing the needs of the bullies fails to help kids who invite bullying. I believe that the biggest reason that many anti-bullying campaigns fail is precisely because they consider only half of the equation.

While I can see your point, up to a point, I think this is where we most disagree. In my opinion, you are shifting too much blame to the victims (... invite bullying.). Regardless of the reasons for bullying, or breaking any law, at some point, a law-breaker becomes the primary person responsible for their actions. I understand the actions of some victims may facilitate the bully in bullying, but they should not be considered to blame. It just isn't the same.

I agree. So, then, why are you so quick to dismiss my ideas? Very, very strange to me.

I don't know why you say I am dismissing your ideas. Dismissing them was not my intent. If I came across in any way other than discussing your ideas and any merit I think they have, or don't have, versus mine, I can tell you I did not intend to do that. Same in what I have said in bold above. I am not dismissing in the way I think you mean that, but saying where I disagree and why. If that isn't coming across to you that way, let me know and I will try to state things differently so that misunderstanding will go away.

But this thread seems to be going in a slightly different way than intended by shesulsa. I have participated in that as well. I think some of what we are saying may still be pertenent, but I think she is looking for non-martial arts solutions (even though she relates some of her solutions within her dojo).

I think I would ask her and others, if where they are, there seems to be a disconnect in reporting bullying? I know I check with my grandson from time to time, to see if he feels he is being bullied by anyone. We have found there are some things he is more comfortable talking to me and my wife about. If it is happening, I want to know. I'm not sure what I would do if he said it was happening, but for sure I wouldn't ignor it. My concern for him, and my two grand-daughters is one reason I am following this thread to see what others contribute.

 

[Steve]

I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond. I want to clarify a few things, myself. I have also given a lot of thought to the topic. My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military. Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult. He and I were very close in age. I'm just barely a year younger. So we were almost always at the same schools.

I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself. This has led me to believe a few things to be true. First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are. Second, I believe that many (I like to believe most) bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.

My point isn't that it's easy to deal with bullying. I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation. Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied. Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids. While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.

 

[Steve]

My goodness, I seem to have touched a nerve.

Wouldn't you agree that bullying is a topic that has the potential to touch a lot of nerves? But let me assure you I'm not overly upset. Just somewhat passionate.

[Have you had some personal experience you could share that might help me and others understand where you are coming from? I did not intend, nor do I think I did, imply that no effort should be expended to change bullies into productive members of society. But I do believe that those bullied must receive the first help. They are pretty much legally blameless, yet are being preyed upon. That must stop as quickly as possible, and they must be protected.

Not always true. I'll share another situation. My son was bullied as a young kid. he's also VERY smart, and while he wasn't able to keep from being bullied, he was also very adept at pushing people's buttons. It was in about the 6th grade when this kid just went bonkers on my son, jumping him at recess and eventually getting suspended for a week, that I realized that my son wasn't the victim. While he was, by all accounts, being physically bullied, he was relentlessly bullying the other kids in his own way, provoking them and pushing their buttons. Until the real issues were addressed, it kept happening. My son was absolutely being bullied, but he was also, at the same time, bullying the other kids, and until we addressed that issue, it was a cycle that repeated every year, in every class.

The bully is pretty much legally at odds with the law, and is always on the lookout for prey. You almost seem to want to ignore that aspect of a bully/bullied situation. I am sure you don't, but to me at least, you sort of come across that way; advocating more for the bully than the bullied. Their 'crime' must be stopped as quickly as possible, so as you suggest, we don't allow the production of more bullies.

I just want to be clear that if someone is breaking the law, they have progressed beyond what I would consider "bullying." Maybe we are starting with different definitions of the term.

 

[lklawson]

I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond. I want to clarify a few things, myself. I have also given a lot of thought to the topic. My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military. Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult. He and I were very close in age. I'm just barely a year younger. So we were almost always at the same schools.

I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself. This has led me to believe a few things to be true. First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are. Second, I believe that many (I like to believe most) bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.

I think we have a lot of common ground.

I think that most men have, as children, experienced bullying. Some relentless, some only rarely, and some falling somewhere in the middle.

My point isn't that it's easy to deal with bullying. I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation. Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied. Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids. While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.

I completely understand.

One of my biggest frustrations is that the tools used to try to help both victim and bully are, even today, poor and often inadequate. I recall clearly working with my son's professional Counselor on the issue of being bullied. She used a board game (we all played together) to reinforce the same tired, "get away, tell an adult, make friends" stuff that has never actually worked as well as society seems to think it should.

It is all to easy for me to understand why some Dads just throw up their hands and tell their sons and daughters to "just punch 'em in the nose, m'kay?" Because "the usual" doesn't work.

We eventually solved our problem with a two-pronged solution. First, we insisted that the bullies themselves be counseled. Second, we just flat removed our son from that environment. When it became clear that the Educators couldn't do the "anti-bullying" job (some seemed, honestly, disinterested and annoyed that we were "making a stink") or working within the IEP for a ADHD/GAD student, we just flat took him out of their "Public School" and enrolled him in a nearby Charter where the Educators are doing a stand-up job on all counts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Not always true. I'll share another situation. My son was bullied as a young kid. he's also VERY smart, and while he wasn't able to keep from being bullied,

This rolls back into your earlier discussion of "Emotional IQ." Being smart isn't always enough. My son, like yours, is just this side of genius on the IQ tests. But there are lots of other things that go into it. Processing Speed, ability to pick up non-verbals, and lots of others (as I'm sure you are aware).

I've also noted some research in recent years that appears to mark a correlation between high IQ and various disorders such as ADHD, Aspergers, and related conditions as well as simple old slow social awareness. Apparently there might be a kernel of truth to the old (and insulting) stereotype of the socially inept genius. <sigh> I suspect that also might be part of the problem. We, modern enlightened humans, have thrown off the shackles of stereotypes (*coughcough*) and we expect that kids this "bright" should be able to simply intuit the solution because, after all, they're frick'n smart! And, if the 1950's taught us nothing else it was that frick'n smart dudes in lab coats would save us from both the commie menace and invading martians. In other words, we expect "really bright" kids to automatically develop skills that the may not necessarily be able to. So, yeah, the idea of Emotional IQ has a lot of merit in this discussion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

This rolls back into your earlier discussion of "Emotional IQ." Being smart isn't always enough. My son, like yours, is just this side of genius on the IQ tests. But there are lots of other things that go into it. Processing Speed, ability to pick up non-verbals, and lots of others (as I'm sure you are aware).

I've also noted some research in recent years that appears to mark a correlation between high IQ and various disorders such as ADHD, Aspergers, and related conditions as well as simple old slow social awareness. Apparently there might be a kernel of truth to the old (and insulting) stereotype of the socially inept genius. <sigh> I suspect that also might be part of the problem. We, modern enlightened humans, have thrown off the shackles of stereotypes (*coughcough*) and we expect that kids this "bright" should be able to simply intuit the solution because, after all, they're frick'n smart! And, if the 1950's taught us nothing else it was that frick'n smart dudes in lab coats would save us from both the commie menace and invading martians. In other words, we expect "really bright" kids to automatically develop skills that the may not necessarily be able to. So, yeah, the idea of Emotional IQ has a lot of merit in this discussion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Emotional intelligence is something I began really thinking and learning about when my son was younger. His behavior and development were concerning as early as his toddler years. Aspergers, like most other things, is a diagnosis that represents a spectrum of behavior. My has been characterized by professionals as either mild or high functioning Aspergers. As a junior in high school, he's very social, although still quite goofy and often very clinical in his interactions. He still has a tendency when he gets upset to manipulate people (including me), which, I can tell you, is a joy with a teenager.

So, all of that said, to address the OP, a very specific thing I'd suggest to parents is to be willing to accept the entire truth, which is that every child is a work in progress. I am 100% a believer that a problem can't be solved until it is owned. In other words, if I am being bullied, I will continue to be bullied until I accept some measure of responsibility for my situation. I'm not saying that a victim of bullying is to blame for it. Rather, I'm saying that the victim of bullying will only be able to influence a situation in which he or she some measure of control. But this won't work if the parents don't believe it, too. Kids are, for the most part, remarkably resilient. Where we fail them, is when we reinforce the idea that they have no measure of responsibility within a situation. As a result, they have no control or ability to influence a situation and, that ultimately leads to a loss of hope. Another side note is that I had two friends in high school who committed suicide. One was a lifelong victim of abuse and the other was gay.

I will say that with an Aspergers situation, it was in some ways a little easier. Like with my brother, a positive aspect of the Aspergers is that my son appreciates direct and specific feedback. "Hey kiddo. You're in my space and it's making me a little uncomfortable. Most people prefer it if you stand about 2 feet away." Now, it's often along the lines of, "Hey, you're pretty stinky, kiddo. Go take a shower before you go outside." Obviously, that kind of direct feedback won't always be appropriate.

 

[oftheherd1]

I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond. I want to clarify a few things, myself. I have also given a lot of thought to the topic. My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military. Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult. He and I were very close in age. I'm just barely a year younger. So we were almost always at the same schools.

I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself. This has led me to believe a few things to be true. First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are. Second, I believe that many (I like to believe most) bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.

My point isn't that it's easy to deal with bullying. I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation. Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied. Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids. While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.

Steve - Thanks for that insight. My guess is that it pains you to admit to some of those things. I am sure it would me. But I not only thank you for giving me insight to you earlier replies, but for the insight it has given me. I don't think I had ever considered a 'bully' being like you. That was enlightening. I will have to include those insights in my thoughts on bullying. Mind you, my past experience tends me to believe you are an exception, not the rule. But I congratulate you on overcoming any desire to bully.

Wouldn't you agree that bullying is a topic that has the potential to touch a lot of nerves? But let me assure you I'm not overly upset. Just somewhat passionate.

Passionate I now understand.

Not always true. I'll share another situation. My son was bullied as a young kid. he's also VERY smart, and while he wasn't able to keep from being bullied, he was also very adept at pushing people's buttons. It was in about the 6th grade when this kid just went bonkers on my son, jumping him at recess and eventually getting suspended for a week, that I realized that my son wasn't the victim. While he was, by all accounts, being physically bullied, he was relentlessly bullying the other kids in his own way, provoking them and pushing their buttons. Until the real issues were addressed, it kept happening. My son was absolutely being bullied, but he was also, at the same time, bullying the other kids, and until we addressed that issue, it was a cycle that repeated every year, in every class.

Another interesting insight. Thanks.

I just want to be clear that if someone is breaking the law, they have progressed beyond what I would consider "bullying." Maybe we are starting with different definitions of the term.

Well, to push or strike someone in a bullying situation is a crime. To threaten to push or strike someone is also a crime. To threaten to do anything illegal to a person is a crime. Intimidation usually is a threat to do something to the victim's person or property. How do you define bullying?

Again, not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand where you come from. And again, thanks for your earlier replies.

 

[Steve]

Steve - Thanks for that insight. My guess is that it pains you to admit to some of those things. I am sure it would me.

Yes and no. I'm ashamed of it, but I'm pretty self aware. There is one kid in particular where I still feel bad when I think of it. I was fighting every day at school in Houston, so when we moved to Austin, TX, my parents put my brother and I into a private school. Well, with a fresh start, I was determined not to take any s*** from anyone. My strategy was to ensure that someone else bore the brunt. So, I just mercilessly provoked a kid in my class until he would just lose it. I never struck him or physically even touched him. I just provoked him until he charged like a wild bull and would laugh as I moved and he would run into a tree or a wall. What a jerk, right? But understand that at the time, I was so incredibly fed up and frustrated that I was determined to change my situation. And, at the time, because he was being bullied and I wasn't, he got counseling and help, and I was left to sort things out myself. Fortunately, because I dealt with it the hard way over a period of decades, my son benefited when I saw the same behavior in him.

Well, to push or strike someone in a bullying situation is a crime. To threaten to push or strike someone is also a crime. To threaten to do anything illegal to a person is a crime. Intimidation usually is a threat to do something to the victim's person or property. How do you define bullying?

I would actually appreciate more education in this area. If we're talking about kids, I just don't see it being assault. There are points where it progresses to assault. Are there any LEO or lawyers who are familiar with juvenile law?

 

[pgsmith]

Kids are, for the most part, remarkably resilient. Where we fail them, is when we reinforce the idea that they have no measure of responsibility within a situation.

This has been a very interesting read y'all, thanks! I quoted that line above because I firmly believe that this is at the root of most bullying behavior. It has been my experience in raising my own sons, and working many years with teenage boys in Scouting, that all children require a measure of control over their environment. They need to be able to make their own decisions and so be able to control, to an extent, what is happening around them. The less control over their lives that children have, the more abherrant their behavior becomes in an attempt to regain control. Bullying behavior is an attempt to exert control over the environment. It is my firm belief that it is the children's parents that need to be educated here far more than it is the children themselves. Proper parenting skills can allow the child to make enough of their own decisions in areas that won't cause them lasting harm if they make a poor decision. This allows the child to feel more secure in their environment and themselves, and allows them to develop the discretion necessary to make good decisions their entire lives. However, it all has to start with the parents, not the children.

Just my two cent's.