That kick in pinan shodan

[Prince_Alarming]

On the subject of pinan shodan, in the first kick where you look behind you, block and kick, there seems to be a certain amount of disagreement about what that kick is. When I was originally taught the kata, it was taught as a side kick. Many years later after a long training hiatus, my new sensei taught it as a front kick. But I noticed my side kick deteriorating in form after I changed the kick, so now I practice it as a side kick in private. Does anyone know what the reason for this disparity is or whether I did the right thing sticking it back in? Thanks for your insights.

 

[_Simon_]

It's my understanding that in Okinawan karate (eg in the Shorinryu version of it, or Pinan) they didn't really have side kicks/yoko geri, or moreso that their yoko geri was done more like front kick in cat stance (so the back leg hip was turned out slightly, so it sort of was a front kick done to the side, so a different kind of side kick). Within Shotokan (Heian Shodan/Nidan depending who you ask) they utilised yoko geri instead. Why that all is I have no idea haha. Maybe so that you're always facing the opponent and not turning your side or back to them?

 

[HighKick]

I LOVE the Pinan forms! So rich in history since they are used in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean style MA's.
As I have seen in my travels, each system and even down to individual schools will have slight variants in the movements and/or ways certain movements are performed.
I am 1st Dan belted in Shotokan and we learned it as a low/mid front kick. When you transition to chamber for the kick, the standing foot never moves, so it is perpendicular to the kick. This is very interesting to me because it is in position for either a side or (this) front kick. By design in my personal opinion but have no proof of that. I have asked many instructors about it and never got a hard answer beyond the boiler-plate "this is how we do it" answer.

MDK TKD also uses a Pinan form set. Slightly different in stances but strikingly similar in the movements of most patterns. The way we do Pinan Shodan is with a side high kick (its TKD, do figure).

I know this isn't a hard answer to your query, but hope you found it worth the read.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Well it's always good to round out one's knowledge. It is power after all

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I mean, I've never seen a side kick in MMA. Then again I haven't watched much MMA

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I mean, I've never seen a side kick in MMA. Then again I haven't watched much MMA

It’s not the most commonly used kick in MMA, perhaps because it doesn’t mesh with the overall fight tactics of many fighters. But it is used.

 

[isshinryuronin]

On the subject of pinan shodan, in the first kick where you look behind you, block and kick, there seems to be a certain amount of disagreement about what that kick is. When I was originally taught the kata, it was taught as a side kick.

I learned it as a side thrust kick done on an angle to the right rear along with a strike instead of block.

Does anyone know what the reason for this disparity is or whether I did the right thing sticking it back in? Thanks

No, to the reason. Yes, to you doing it your way on your own. There is no "one way" in TMA, just the way your style or sensei does it and wants you to do it in formal settings.

When you transition to chamber for the kick, the standing foot never moves, so it is perpendicular to the kick.

We chambered the kick in a cat stance so kicking on the angle I described made it a true side kick.

It's my understanding that in Okinawan karate (eg in the Shorinryu version of it, or Pinan) they didn't really have side kicks/yoko geri, or moreso that their yoko geri was done more like front kick in cat stance

Yeah, sidekicks are very rare in Okinawan karate. Especially the full side thrust. I'd guess the reason is that this is a long-range kick and Okinawan is mainly a close-in system. Traditionally, what sidekicks there are, are a shorter-range snapping sidekick, or downward stomping side thrust to the knee. Pinan 1 has the side kick (as I learned it), but that may be a later backwash from the Japanese version. Don't know how Itosu did it.

Isshinryu kihon does have a front kick done to the side from cat stance as you describe. For some reason it's named "yoko soto geri" (side outside kick). I think "yoko" or "soto" mae geri is more correct, but I don't make the rules. Names weren't important in the old days as the teacher would just say, "Kick like this to the side."

 

[Same Trick]

I LOVE the Pinan forms! So rich in history since they are used in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean style MA's.
As I have seen in my travels,

Pinan karats in what Chinese style ?

 

[HighKick]

Pinan karats in what Chinese style ?

Oh my, too many to mention! Think of some of the long arm moves and stance work in some of the forms. Pinan 4 comes to mind.

 

[HighKick]

We chambered the kick in a cat stance so kicking on the angle I described made it a true side kick.

We do as well. At least we identify it as a cat stance chamber, but I have always thought of it as a crane stance (with a little knee bend).
Where/why is it called a 'cat stance' anyway?

 

[HighKick]

It’s not the most commonly used kick in MMA, perhaps because it doesn’t mesh with the overall fight tactics of many fighters. But it is used.

That sliding side kick like Rodriguez was doing is one of my favorite goto's. Crazy how much distance can be covered.
You really have to be aware of the upper body position (so you don't get punched) but cancelling the kick by simply stepping in can be fairly easy. Just mentally counter-intuitive.
This is super common in WT sparring where the competitors do not have to worry about being punched to the face (I know, not realistic). If you watch a few matches, you will hear 'cancelled' all the time.

 

[Same Trick]

Oh my, too many to mention! Think of some of the long arm moves and stance work in some of the forms. Pinan 4 comes to mind.

Mmm, Pinan katas are a creation from Kanku/Kushanku, Jion and possible Bassai/Passai katas, purely an Okinawan creation, however individual techniques or short sequences found in those katas probably have roots in China.
I’m on a theory that Kanku/Kushanku kata is closely related to the martial techniques that formed up what came to be Taijiquan in China .
Pinan in China translate to PingAn, here’s a Bank with that name(Ive got an account), that I think is the closest to any Pinan here in China.

 

[Badhabits]

Mmm, Pinan katas are a creation from Kanku/Kushanku, Jion and possible Bassai/Passai katas, purely an Okinawan creation, however individual techniques or short sequences found in those katas probably have roots in China.
I’m on a theory that Kanku/Kushanku kata is closely related to the martial techniques that formed up what came to be Taijiquan in China .
Pinan in China translate to PingAn, here’s a Bank with that name(Ive got an account), that I think is the closest to any Pinan here in China.

The kicking sequence in pinan shodan (side kick with strike instead of block version anyway) is very close to a sequence in bassai. Both have a kick folding the other guys leg with a strike to the face/head area. The version of bassai I currently practice has this as a crescent kick which turns into a low side kick before the foot sets down. I was taught that if the crescent fails to fold their leg it can be converted into a side kick to the leg at the last second. I think though in pinan, the strike to the face is done to aid in taking the guy down, while in bassai the strike is done after the guys head is lowered from the kick folding the leg. That strike in bassai can also be a forearm to the side of the head while pulling the guys arm to wrench their neck. At least the way I was taught it.