Heian Yondan opening moves; what do they mean?

[ichinisan]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am studying Shotokan.

Can any one help with this thing thats bothering me. At the start of the kata Heian (Pinan?) Yondan we carry out simultaneous open hand "blocks" to the side and above the head(ish). I have always been taught to decelerate these and increase the strength as they rise (or move out).

This suggests to me that i am supposed to be pushing against something, but its hard to figure out what. After the right side there is a step forward (left leg zenkutsu dachi) and low cross block. That I have been told is to block a kick. I would be quite reluctant to block a kcik this way, normally.

Any ideas please?

Thanks

 

[oldnewbie]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am studying Shotokan.

Can any one help with this thing thats bothering me. At the start of the kata Heian (Pinan?) Yondan we carry out simultaneous open hand "blocks" to the side and above the head(ish). I have always been taught to decelerate these and increase the strength as they rise (or move out).

This suggests to me that i am supposed to be pushing against something, but its hard to figure out what. After the right side there is a step forward (left leg zenkutsu dachi) and low cross block. That I have been told is to block a kick. I would be quite reluctant to block a kcik this way, normally.

Any ideas please?

Thanks

I study Shotokan as well, but don't have any good answers to your question. I also was taught to make the moves slowly with great intensity.
I was taught the low cross was a defense to a snap kick, why wouldn;t you use this???

 

[ichinisan]

I wouldn't use it because when I tried it with my Tae kwon doo friend his foot got much to close for comfort.

If I was sparring I would, side step and or maybe crescent kick it. The cross block also brings me very low and reduces my mobility. I know that kata are not sparring of course, but I am just trying to make sense of what I am learning.

It could be that my application of this is not quite right I guess.


I was wondering, and this is a big speculative leap, if the cross block and the following morote were in reality throws of some sort.

 

[oldnewbie]

I wouldn't use it because when I tried it with my Tae kwon doo friend his foot got much to close for comfort.

If I was sparring I would, side step and or maybe crescent kick it. The cross block also brings me very low and reduces my mobility. I know that kata are not sparring of course, but I am just trying to make sense of what I am learning.

It could be that my application of this is not quite right I guess.


I was wondering, and this is a big speculative leap, if the cross block and the following morote were in reality throws of some sort.

As far as the throw idea...none really exist in shotokan as I know. (Although an interesting leap.) We throw a double forearm block after the cross block. The first in a forward stance, the second in a back stance, followed by the cup and saucer...in my mind .. defending the snap kick, blocking a punch.. and setting up for the side kick, as my attacker moves to my left.

:idunno:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

The double low cross block, that was told to be use for a kick. Will only get you hurt. The movement is a joint lock to the wrist and or a choke.

 

[Yossarian75]

As with every move in katas there are many possible applications. The opening move: The hand above the head can be used to block and grab onto a hook punch, the other hand can be used to strike the arm from the outside(above the elbow) as you turn or it could come from the other direction and strike the neck/jaw area.

The low x block is not the best move for blocking a kick like you said, it leaves you open for a nice punch to the face. Not to mention the amount of forearm conditioning needed to block a kick without your arms breaking.

Imagine youve just used the above moves to counter a right hand hook. Now grab your attackers head with your right hand, turn left into long stance while pulling the head down, you should now have your attackers head at waist level, now use the right hand to punch to the back of their head.

Or from a right hand straight punch. Parry with the left, grab with the right and and pull down to your right, again their head will be at waist level, use the left hand to punch to the back of the head.

 

[ichinisan]

Thanks for all you replies guys that gives me something to think about when i'm training today.

Yossarian75,or anyone else, do you think the apparent reinforced block thats the next move after the "cross block" is a continuation move...I dunno maybe a throw to the right or something, or is it part of something else?

and...the opening moves again: we are taught to look left or right when doing this, although the most obvious direction of the attack is from the front. Could this be equaly applicable as a block to the right with the right hand and the left, which is over your head is waiting to apply the lock?

Still puzzling over all this. I have loads more questions, I'm afraid.

Once again, thanks for your efforts guys.

ichinisan

 

[Yossarian75]

"do you think the apparent reinforced block thats the next move after the "cross block" is a continuation move...I dunno maybe a throw to the right or something, or is it part of something else?"

It could be a continuation from the x block or it could be used on its own, it depends on what applications you use for both. You could maybe get them in a choke hold(reinforced block) after the punch to the back of the head. Use your left arm to apply pressure to the windpipe and your right arm to crank the head to the right, whilst stepping forward and kneeing them(back stance).

I allways assume im being attacked from the front, I use the turn in the above application after I have applied pressure to the arm I turn to the right, this turns the opponent, adds more pressure to the elbow and unbalances.

Your application seems ok, you would have to adjust the technique slightly to pull off the lock. Best way to find out is to try it, if its hard to pull off discard it or adjust it slightly. It doesnt have to be exactly the same as the Kata.