Techniques in sparring

[brianhunter]

Okay how many out there work actual Kenpo techniques in sparring.....I heard someone with a very good idea say pick one inside one outside and work them to death.

I also heard someone say "a shot should stop the guy dead in his tracks" when did tourneys get away from this? Why? I think if a kick is thrown right at a person. they shouldnt be up in the guys grill stuffing a fist down his throat.

Seems to me that "sparring" and tourneys have gotten away from what they should be practical applications of self defence techniques.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kenpomachine]

Have a full contact category in kenpo tournaments, no stop after points.

 

[brianhunter]

Did I get black listed or something and nobody tell me? Geez I thought it would make a good conversation LOL

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Did I get black listed or something and nobody tell me? Geez I thought it would make a good conversation LOL

Me too. Great threads like this don't last long. Meanwhile the
"Post Everytime You Look" thread is still going strong.

 

[brianhunter]

so what self defense techniques do you think would work good to develop in sparring? I think delayed sword with a back nuckle instead of a hand sword would be a good one. But then it wouldnt be a delayed sword anymore would it

 

[Kirk]

Hooking Wings and Calming the Storm (against a roundhouse
punch) are 2 I'm dying to try.

In my limited experience, it sure seems that a lot of people want
you to fight like a kickboxer, and not like a kenpoist. I know I'm
a man of little experience and knowledge, but if you can't pull off
a technique while sparring, then why are we learning them?

 

[brianhunter]

calming the storm against a roundhouse would be a good one just nail the chest instead of the face. hooking wings to me would have to be modified because everyone screams about face contact LOL

 

[brentb]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Have a full contact category in kenpo tournaments, no stop after points.

This is something I was just getting into in my training at my former school. They called it 'Continuous Sparring'. It wasn't necessarily full contact, but it ended up that way sometimes. The idea was to spar for a specific time, working up from 30 seconds to 1 minute and beyond. You don't stop for points. The winner was the one who had dominated the other person for majority of the match. It is much harder than it sounds to go for a minute or more when you are using clean techniques, and not being sloppy. Definately worth trying out. If you haven't done anything similar it is quite an eye opener, as to how long your cardio will hold up when throwing kicks and punches and moving around continuously.

take care
Brent

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by brentb
This is something I was just getting into in my training at my former school. They called it 'Continuous Sparring'. It wasn't necessarily full contact, but it ended up that way sometimes. The idea was to spar for a specific time, working up from 30 seconds to 1 minute and beyond. You don't stop for points. The winner was the one who had dominated the other person for majority of the match. It is much harder than it sounds to go for a minute or more when you are using clean techniques, and not being sloppy. Definately worth trying out. If you haven't done anything similar it is quite an eye opener, as to how long your cardio will hold up when throwing kicks and punches and moving around continuously.

take care
Brent

I like the idea of going from 30 seconds and building up to one minute etc. I would like to see more tourneys geared towards continuous!

 

[kenpo12]

They had continuous sparring at Mr Trejo and Mr Ramsey's IMACC Tournament. It's the only way I like to spar in Tournaments now after doing it at the last one. You spar for 2 minutes, and no stopping for points. If nothing else it's a lot of fun!

Matt

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Kirk
I know I'm
a man of little experience and knowledge, but if you can't pull off
a technique while sparring, then why are we learning them?

For ideas, theories and reflexes, I would have thought. I don't think techniques are designed to be pulled off in sparring, and I've never seen anyone trying to fight this way either.

For a start, the techniques are mostly defences against one strike, such as a single punch. Sparring's not like that, people throw whatever they like, whenever they like;they're not going to stand their and wait for you to finish a technique, even if it's a short one!

To my mind, practising and learning techniques teaches you how the body moves and reacts, where people's strong and weak points are, and how people are going to move when you strike them in certain places. As well as this, they get you used to physical contact, show you your own strengths and limitations, and improve your speed, stamina and reflexes. Then you take this experience and develop your own dynamic fighting style for sparring, or in fact self defence in general.

Of course, that's too much of a generalisation. I reckon that you could pull off the techniques against grabs and locks if you wanted to, because they give you a fixed point of reference and more control, but with the defences against a strikes of any kind, I'm not so sure.

That's just my view anyway,

Ian.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Kirk
if you can't pull off
a technique while sparring, then why are we learning them?

some more obvious reasons for not doing certain techniques in competition are the types of strikes that simply aren't legal. eye gouges...groin strikes....limb destructions...attacking other soft targets such as the throat. that's just not gonna fly with a tournament judge. plus, depending on your hand gear, the fingers may be covered up by a glove and gripping ability will be hindered as well.

why learn the techniques if you can't spar with them? you speak as if sparring is the end all be all of martial arts. i love to spar under certain rules...but the main focus of my training is to survive in a real life situation where i'm able to use all the tools i have available.

and let's not forget that techniques were never meant to be done to completion in any setting. the principles and concepts stressed in the techniques are the important part. they show different strikes and weapons that can be used for certain situations and body positions.

but it's friday...and i'm goin' out....

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by kenpo12
They had continuous sparring at Mr Trejo and Mr Ramsey's IMACC Tournament. It's the only way I like to spar in Tournaments now after doing it at the last one. You spar for 2 minutes, and no stopping for points. If nothing else it's a lot of fun!

Matt

And you can counterattack too!!!

That way you can get a blow and then hit back HARD Have I told you I love counters?

 

[pineapple head]

To my mind, practising and learning techniques teaches you how the body moves and reacts, where people's strong and weak points are, and how people are going to move when you strike them in certain places. As well as this, they get you used to physical contact, show you your own strengths and limitations, and improve your speed, stamina and reflexes. Then you take this experience and develop your own dynamic fighting style for sparring, or in fact self defence in general.

Got to agree with Ian on this one.:asian:
I was sparring last week and of coarse you cannot pull of a tech.
I have limited exp of sparring and was surprised how quickly i got into a brawl. I have trouble concentrating on my defense , i just want to get in there and attack. This is something now we are all working on together.

 

[roryneil]

I think you should practice the openings of techs. Like the initial block/strike combo. You don't practice real, whole techniques because that would leave your partner broken and bleeding on the mat!!

 

[brianhunter]

Okay, first off Im not talking about completing "back breaker" against a punch, or gouging someones eyes out or finishing leap of death if the hit the floor. I think people tend to overthink things......A technique like delayed sword, alternating maces (against a punch not a push but a push is just a lazy punch i guess), or aggressive twins I would think would be ones you could pull off sparring.

Yes they are ideas and if we are learning an "alphabet" we should be able to rearrange, prefix, suffix etc. to pull of something that looks like a tech in sparring.

Ian made some good points but this one stuck out to me;

"I don't think techniques are designed to be pulled off in sparring, and I've never seen anyone trying to fight this way either."

When else would you pull off a technique then if not in a fight? Then that again brings the question, why learn them? If they are ideas there clearly would have to be a scenerio where this "idea" would work and if we are a practical self defense(fighting)art then why learn them? Why not stand in a horse or a NB and throw blocking/punching/kicking combos because we cant pull off the techniques in the real world. Our system puts a lot of weight and training time into the SD tech, I find it hard to believe they cant be pulled off in real world Ive done it(or a grafted variation of them)myslef.

 

[jeffkyle]

The concepts of Sparring are different than a "real life" street fight. In sparring neither opponent is attempting to commit their action completely to their opponent, just enough to get the point or "tag" their opponent. In a "real" fight there will be most likely be a strong commitment by one person via punch, kick, etc. to do serious damage to the other person (unless it is 2 kenpoists fighting each other, LOL) .
That does not mean that someone won't commit a good kick in a sparring environment, and in that case a technique may be applied....OR if a certain reaction occurs by one sparring opponent the other may be able to perform a technique, or partial technique, on that person. This can happen from time to time. But in sparring the "idea" isn't who hits hardest...it is who hits FIRST...therefore leaving less time toward commitment and more time toward speed and follow up.
That alone can cause one opponent attempting to perform Delayed Sword...while the other is attempting to perform Alternating Maces...for example.
:asian:

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jeffkyle

But in sparring the "idea" isn't who hits hardest...it is who hits FIRST...therefore leaving less time toward commitment and more time toward speed and follow up.
That alone can cause one opponent attempting to perform Delayed Sword...while the other is attempting to perform Alternating Maces...for example.
:asian:

I agree with you on a lot of what you said, but as an art are we in a sense defeating the purpose of self defence but playing "tag"? I know you get a chance to react to an opponent and look for openings, etc. I just think that with enough practice you could begin to pull off certain self defense techniques in sparring.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter
I agree with you on a lot of what you said, but as an art are we in a sense defeating the purpose of self defence but playing "tag"? I know you get a chance to react to an opponent and look for openings, etc. I just think that with enough practice you could begin to pull off certain self defense techniques in sparring.

If we didn't just play "tag" the classes would get smaller and smaller increasingly fast...don't you think? Sparring isn't supposed to be Self-Defense, or "real" fighting. It is supposed to be a tool to enable you to utilize your basics and incorporate them into combinations to allow you to "tag" an opponent.
But then what are Self-Defense Techniques you ask....a tool to enable you to utilize your basics into combinations to allow you to hurt, injure, inflict serious pain in a "real life" situation.
So the answer is Yes you can apply Self-Defense techniques into sparring...likewise you can apply Sparring techniques, ie B1a B1b, into "real life" fights when applicable.
But you have to keep in mind the different applications for what you are doing. You don't want to try to break a sparring partners arm, or poke their eye out, at the studio. And you don't want to "tag" someone out in the street that is trying to seriously hurt you.
They all blend together at some point. Just knowing when and how is the key! :asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Well, as I said before, I reckon this needs to be split into two distinct camps: grabs and strikes.

Against grabs, someone is making contact with you, and you've got a fixed point of reference to work from. A good kenpoist should be able to turn a guy around and get a nasty arm lock on from loads of different grab positions (they're not hard moves), then either maintain the lock, break an elbow joint, or whatever. In these circumstances, then yes, I could see someone pulling off Gripping Talon, Crossing Talon, Lone Kimono, Conquering Shield, Obscure Wing etc. etc. etc.

Against strikes though, it's just not going to happen, but, this doesn't mean that learning the techs is a waste of time. Pretty much all of them (well, the ones that I know anyway) are against a single strike. We practice them by throwing the punch or kick, then standing there whilst someone finishes the technique off. People aren't going to do this.

Firstly, they're actually going to be aiming a you. I don't know what it's like in other people's schools, but no matter how often I tell people to actually get in range for a strike and aim at the target in our school, they don't. They throw punches that land anything from 10cm-30cm short of target, and often aim to the sides of people's heads for example.

Secondly, it's going to be full speed. Can you properly block sull speed and full power strikes? If you don't know, get someone to put some gloves on and properly try to knock you out, you'll soon find out.

Thirdly, they're not going to just throw one strike, they're going to try and batter the crap out of you as fast as they can. They're certainly not going to throw a single, step-through right and then just stand there.

All these things conspire against you, and that's why I don't think you've got a hope on hell of pulling off a full or even half a tech in a proper fight.

So, why isn't it a waste of time learning them then? Well, to my mind, you're learning lots of nice block/strike combinations, as well as lots of strike/strike/strike combinations. If someone takes a swing at you, you might be able to get a block/strike combo in before they throw another punch, then maybe you can get another block/strike combo in, that's still two strikes you've landed to their nil, if you can block them properly. Then maybe if you've got them feeling a bit dizzy with a couple of strikes, or winded, then you can lay in with a strike/strike/strike combination. So, you're still using what you've learnt. The point being that the strike combinations in kenpo are designed to be motion efficient, and to let you use checks and covers, so it's an advantage to fight with these combinations rather than just thowing your own left and right haymakers, like they probably are.

The important point is though, you need to turn yourself into a dynamic fighting machine; someone who can use what they've learnt in a fluid and flowing fashion. The techniques as they stand are static, and pre-prescribed. They don't adapt to the opponent. And in doing this, you also need to train yourself to think lightening fast, constantly working out where the next strike might be coming from, and where you can land your own strikes, as well as having good situational awareness.

Having said all that, people keep mentioning sparring and street fighting in the same context, and not making a whole lot of distinction (Jeff's got the right idea...). To me, sparring is a bit of fun you have with your friends in the dojo, no-one's trying to hurt anyone, and it's just a way to improve fitness and practice your blocking, nothing more. If you're training seriously, train for the street, not for the dojo, and make the distinction.

(All above is personal views. )

Ian.