Importance of Sparring

[Shortay]

Sparring with beginners is not a mistake. Only you have to be extremely careful how you pair them up. They usually think they're safer sparring with other beginners, when in a normal environment is the opposite.

I totally agree. Most beginners have yet to appreciate the concept of control and two beginners together can lead to an over-aggressive sparring session. But it would be a mistake to say they shouldn't spar at all or else how are they going to learn? Even a person experienced in techniques can find it hard to make the transition to a less-structured attack, so this can apply equally to complete beginners and beginners to sparring.

And if some of them is paired with a woman, they usually behave like asses and go with the stupidest of comments "but I can hurt her", even when sparring with brown or black belts.

I have had people do that to me too. Particularly where I'm sparring a beginner and because I wear a black gi they want to prove a point. Practice in sparring helps develop not only reactive skills but also develops the right attitude training in general. We aren't in competition in training, we are trying to learn how to defend ourselves and to do that we have got work together. Sparring is a big part of that and is essential for learning to trust each other.

 

[jdmills]

Not to mention, putting a beginner with a more advanced person makes it possible to know who to blame if someone gets hurt. Advanced belts can sometimes learn a lot from beginners who sometimes do unexpected things and also sometimes have a natural broken rythym that can be somewhat tricky to anticipate.

 

[LexTalinis]

If I went to a dojo and learned that they did not spar, I would turn around and leave. Sparing is how Kenpoka polish thier techniques and become conditioned to the vigors and speed of acutal combat.

Thos that do not include sparing must have taken one to many blows to the brain :whip:

 

[jdmills]

I guess if you get a black belt via ebay (or otherwise pay for it without any checks of skill level) it probably would be a good idea not to spar in the school. A good street fighter or someone with a little training may wipe the floor with the "master". Could be embarrassing.

I'm not saying that all martial artists (even in Kenpo studios) who do not spar are fakes. Obviously, that is not true. I can think of several justifiable reasons not to let students spar at all (insurance concerns and the instructors lack of interest in the sparring aspects of the art with a refocus on kata or mental aspects are two reasons) but I simply disagree.

I've known a few kenpo black belts who were not particularly good fighters. They seemed to be more interested in developing katas for competition. It's not for me to pass judgment on how a particular instructor decides to teach but I would not study there since I am interested (among other things) in improving my self defense capabilities.

 

[dubljay]

Sparring is very important in developing abilities. However I also feel that in some ways the value of sparring is often over estimated in developing skills. If my history is accurate in the early days of Karate in Japan and Okinawa sparring was an inconceivable idea. If I understand the reasoning correctly it was simply because only one would survive the match. There is no denying the ability of those ancient Karate masters in their ability to fight, which was developed in general without sparring. I am not trying to debunk the value of sparring; I am just trying to put a different perspective on the situation. Working on forms and Kata's is a great way to develop creativity and to identify weaknesses with certain strikes and stances. The true key to honing your martial arts abilities is to find the balance that works best for you, and the best way to train students is to give them all the tools necessary for them to find that balance on their own.

Just my thoughts and perhaps someone with a better knowledge of martial arts history could set some of my facts straight.


-Josh-

 

[Seabrook]

I have heard of several Tracy Kenpo clubs that put little to no emphasis on sparring. Sorry if this is a broad generalization about Tracy's Kenpo in general because I do know some Tracy black belts that are tough as nails.

But I have to say that I actually know a few Tracy clubs that do NO sparring whatsoever and that this seems more common in Tracy clubs than EPAK. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

I have to say I am a firm believer that if a school doesn't work on sparring....time to find another one.

Jamie Seabrook

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[jdmills]

I have heard of several Tracy Kenpo clubs that put little to no emphasis on sparring. Sorry if this is a broad generalization about Tracy's Kenpo in general because I do know some Tracy black belts that are tough as nails.

But I have to say that I actually know a few Tracy clubs that do NO sparring whatsoever and that this seems more common in Tracy clubs than EPAK. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

I have to say I am a firm believer that if a school doesn't work on sparring....time to find another one.

Jamie Seabrook

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Since I did a significant amount of my training in the Philadelphia area (where there was (at least at the time) a very strong Tracy influence, I have seen a fair number of Tracy practitioners and I started that way myself (30 techniques per belt till I switched a blue belt level). I personally did not see this but that was more than a decade ago and the philosophy may have changed. I've seen Tracy practitioners who could not do much else but spar. It all depends on the individual and the instructor.

 

[The Kai]

I started out at a tracy school, believe me there was full contact fighting ever night!! In the midwest I am

 

[LexTalinis]

Sparring is very important in developing abilities. However I also feel that in some ways the value of sparring is often over estimated in developing skills. If my history is accurate in the early days of Karate in Japan and Okinawa sparring was an inconceivable idea. If I understand the reasoning correctly it was simply because only one would survive the match. There is no denying the ability of those ancient Karate masters in their ability to fight, which was developed in general without sparring. I am not trying to debunk the value of sparring; I am just trying to put a different perspective on the situation. Working on forms and Kata's is a great way to develop creativity and to identify weaknesses with certain strikes and stances. The true key to honing your martial arts abilities is to find the balance that works best for you, and the best way to train students is to give them all the tools necessary for them to find that balance on their own.

Just my thoughts and perhaps someone with a better knowledge of martial arts history could set some of my facts straight.


-Josh-

Exactly, they did not spar for the precise reason that there would only be one at the end. But the technology of today allows us to spar in general saftey. back in the 50's and 60's they tied newspapers to their shins and wore boxing gloves... look at what we have today. I think with the equipment avalible to us, even the masters of old would encurage sparring.

Ufortunately I see too many people walk in my dojo and expect point sparing. I place no emphasis on competitive sparring, if my students wish to compete, then I work with them on it, but I stress seeing techniques preformed, and treating it like an actual fight. If it goes to the ground, then that's where it goes. To me it is not about sport, but about defense. Otherwise, it is mearly a game of tag. Just my opinion.

 

[jdmills]

Exactly, they did not spar for the precise reason that there would only be one at the end. But the technology of today allows us to spar in general saftey. back in the 50's and 60's they tied newspapers to their shins and wore boxing gloves... look at what we have today. I think with the equipment avalible to us, even the masters of old would encurage sparring.

Ufortunately I see too many people walk in my dojo and expect point sparing. I place no emphasis on competitive sparring, if my students wish to compete, then I work with them on it, but I stress seeing techniques preformed, and treating it like an actual fight. If it goes to the ground, then that's where it goes. To me it is not about sport, but about defense. Otherwise, it is mearly a game of tag. Just my opinion.

There are still many who justify not sparring by saying that their techniques are "too deadly" or that learning to pull punches teaches students to pull punches on the street. I personally do not buy any of it. Kenpo techniques are very devastating if fully executed at full speed and power. However, that does not mean that we cannot spar and I don't think that logic truly applies to any system.

 

[dubljay]

I would just like to say that I was making a point by saying that in the past Martial Artists were devestatingly effective fighters and did not spar. In todays world of technology we can safely spar at all levels. I just wanted to point out the sparring is simply ONE of many training methods to learn to defend yourself.


-Josh-


Edit

If you read my initial response to this thread you will see my personal views of this matter, I just wanted to keep everyone's mind open.

 

[jdmills]

I would just like to say that I was making a point by saying that in the past Martial Artists were devestatingly effective fighters and did not spar. In todays world of technology we can safely spar at all levels. I just wanted to point out the sparring is simply ONE of many training methods to learn to defend yourself.


-Josh-


Edit

If you read my initial response to this thread you will see my personal views of this matter, I just wanted to keep everyone's mind open.

Yes, I agree. I have also hear of Tai Chi practitioners who were great fighters. I think it takes longer to be an effective fighter in some styles than it does in others. I also think that sparring is the most effective way to speed up progression in the ability to fight. It's not impossible to become effective without sparring, it just takes much longer

 

[Whitebelt]

this is compleatly unrelated...how do you start a thread?

 

[dubljay]

this is compleatly unrelated...how do you start a thread?

Check out the FAQ section and the Meet and Greet sections.

For starting threads
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19998

Welcome to MT

-Josh-


Edit

Be sure to check out the rules for posting and what not.

 

[Drag'n]

That really sux that you have to worry about law suits in US dojos.
Here in Japan it would be unheard of to sue your dojo.After all its a MA school.Of course you're going to get hurt!
I wasted many years at dojos that didn't free spar. To be honest I really couldn't fight back then. I thought I could though.
Now its the opposite extreme. Sparring full contact 3-4 days a week.
It's really taking its toll on my body.One injury after another.
I think its really important to find ballance.
Sometimes you need to keep it light and really focus on technique.Thats where the most learning usually occurs.
But you also need to go all out sometimes to get used to the adrenalin of combat , condition your mind and body to take punishment, and react calmly in the face of an aggressive attack.
Not to mention timing, distancing ,balance, focus etc....
Sparring is essential if you want to learn how to fight.

 

[jdmills]

There is more to martial arts than sparring. Frankly, I'm not sure who I would rather be, the black belt that I met at an Ed Parker seminar outside Philly who could tear the hell out of nearly anyone he came across (I am referring to other kenpo black belts here) but didn't know half the techniques and three quarters of the katas, or the black belt I saw at a tournament who did one of the best kata's I have ever seen but can't fight worth a damn.

Too much emphasis on sparring is is nearly as bad as no emphasis at all. There is more to martial arts than pure fighting ability in my opinion.

 

[dubljay]

Too much emphasis on sparring is is nearly as bad as no emphasis at all. There is more to martial arts than pure fighting ability in my opinion.

Well said

 

[jdmills]

That really sux that you have to worry about law suits in US dojos.
. . .
Here in Japan it would be unheard of to sue your dojo.After all its a MA school.Of course you're going to get hurt!

Yes, you should expect and be able to tolerate a certain level of injury. A good release will say that you can be injured, have broken bones, and even be crippled or killed. In the interest of full disclosure the student should know what s/he is getting into going in. However, a release is not an authorization for an instuctor to permit students to spar without supervision, pair students with other students known to be overly aggressive or to lack control, permit students who are known to intentionally injure other students to remain, or to otherwise neglect their responsibilities. Yes, students should know that they can be seriously injured in martial arts training (it's not a knitting class) but since it is a serious and dangerous activity, instuctors are expected and therefore required to closely monitor sparring sessions and to conduct the sparring classes in a safe manner.

That being said, due to the extreme language used in all good releases, lawsuits against martial arts schools are, generally, fairly uncommon.

 

[kenpoworks]

Boxing clubs in my experience have less injuries than kenpo/karate/MAs etc. because they get the students where they have to be gradually and usually have the students best interests at heart.

I have always loved freestyle and the people who get "really" good at it realise early on that the "Macho" attitude of "no pain (injury) no gain" is actually a hindrance to progress.

A lot Kenpo instructors would find the Boxing Gym a humbling experience.

Sparring is important at any age or level just get rid of the "gun slingers".

 

[daddyslittle1]

In my aikido school we dont spar either.I used to take kenpo and we sparred all the time.I like sparring alot though.Instead of sparring we do an attack line.Were someone runs up to you and attacks you with out you knowing what the attack is.Then we have to reaspond immediately.