Techniques And Conditioned Fighters

[MJS]

There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring. The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.

So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there. Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes. Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape. These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?

 

[celtic_crippler]

The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.

 

[Blindside]

Alot (most) body shots aren't one-shot KOs, that doesn't mean they aren't effective.

Did it keep the other guy off of you?
Did it keep the other guy on the defensive?
Did it make him suck a little wind?
Did it make him start to drop his hands?

It is sort of like a leg kick, you do a Muay Thai style leg kick to someone who isn't expecting/trained against it, and chances are you will buckle that leg. Do it to someone who is mentally trained to take the punishment and it won't have a huge effect (caveat: unless you wind up doing structural damage of course), that doesn't mean that shot isn't effective, alot of things aren't "effective" against well-conditioned fighters used to taking lots of punishment.

Lamont

 

[stickarts]

It's a combination of the variables. The skill and conditioning of one fighter vs. the other.
A fighter in great condition is one obstacle to overcome. When I first started training, I had little experience but I was in very good shape. That helped me to do well against other beginners and some intermediate levels but I still wasn't able to overcome experienced fighters until I became more experienced.
Its all about determining your opponents advantages and disadvantages and neutalizing their advantages.

 

[zDom]

I have unintentionally put the hurts on some very big, well conditioned fighters over the years with well-timed and well-placed kicks. Sometimes THROUGH a hogu.

You can, IMO, SHRINK the vulnerable area around the solar plexus, but there will always remain a dime-sized target that can stun the solar plexus if it is "right on the button."

 

[FearlessFreep]

Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone ...

body composition plays into whether conditioned or not. Some pressure point techniques don't work too well against people with a lot of tissue between the skin and the nerve (the technique would work if you could reach the nerve). Wrist techniques are harder against people with big wrists (the technique would work if you could get the wrist in position, but there may be enough body material keeping the wrist from getting to that point...)

But I don't think that's what you mean, I think you mean mental condition rather than a physical composition

 

[MattJ]

The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.

Great post, I agree totally. Any technique can work on anyone, if done right and timed right. I have found that hard, low sidekicks to the knee or shin will wreck the base of just about anyone. Works great for what I want it to do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?

I am assuming here you are talking about a strike thrown by a conditioned fighter against a conditioned fighter not just a person in good shape.

A fighter is trained to hit and be hit so if those are the conditions then celtic_crippler hit it right on the nose.

The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?

There are many kinds of variations to each kick. The power side kicks, like the stepthrough, will break a man. Dang near any man (just as Joe Louis.)

Some kicks, like a front round house, don't have much power, or a whipping front kick instead of a thrusting front kick (a power kick).

To find your ability to deliver power with any kick, or punch, you need a good punching bag! There you will find out if your strikes have real power.

But I will say, I know of people near me that will kill you with most of their kicks. They are just that powerful with them. You get out of their way!!!

Deaf

 

[Skpotamus]

I've seen police training videos of people taking bean bag rounds to their .... "overdeveloped" stomachs without it bothering them too much. I think the flab acted as a shock absorber for the round.

When using a Brachial Plexus Origin stun on someone with a lot of flab around their neck, I had to hit it full power, repeatedlly, just to get an effect. On an average person, I usually only have to hit about 1/4 power to create a stun on most people.

I saw two friends get into a fight, one is 350lbs at about 5'8", the other 200lbs at 5'11" and does Muay Thai. The 200lber punched and kneed the bigger guy in the stomach repeatedly, with the bigger guy not seeming to notice the hits.

Remember the early UFC's? Keith Hackney vs the 618lb sumo wrestler? Hackney spent the first few minutes throwing sidekicks to the guys hip, stomach and thigh with no effect. He finally knocked the sumo down with a palm heel to the forehead.

I think body composition makes some targets a lot less accessable to actually getting hurt. A very overweight person can absorb a pretty hard shot to the stomach without taking too much damage from it), by the same token, someone with a lot of muscle around their midsections can take a lot harder hit as well.

A regular person will buckle on a round kick to the thigh, where someone who does powerlifting might be able to take a few before they go down.

A trained fighter will probably either parry or side step most side kicks and end up behind you. In MMA, that results in chokes and takedowns.

 

[shihansmurf]

A lot of how effective a give technique is dependent on the target and how it was set up. Catch the person off guard, not allow the to brace for the hit, or somehow prevent them from turning with the impact then most strikes will effectively end most encounters.

With side kicks I find that using a jab-cross combo to raise their hands and distract them is a great set up for a very destructive side kick to lead leg. I'm fond of the shin/thigh area.
The side kick is also outstanding against an opponent that you have pushed away at the break of a clinch.

To find your ability to deliver power with any kick, or punch, you need a good punching bag! There you will find out if your strikes have real power. Deaf Smith

Amen and preach on, man! It isn't possible to get better advice than this on developing power in your strikes.

Mark

 

[sgtmac_46]

I don't think it's just a conditioned fighter issue, though conditioned fighters are one aspect. No technique will work on everyone, except maybe decapitation. A kick may work, but in the street one should be prepared to have ZERO effect with a given technique, and follow up accordingly. One needs to be ready with Plan B, Plan C, and all the way to Plan F! The thing to prepared for is to NOT lose it because your technique failed and you were too discouraged to follow up.

Physical conditioning, mental toughness/pain resistance, size, mass, even chemical impairment will impact a techniques effectiveness in the street.

 

[MJS]

I am assuming here you are talking about a strike thrown by a conditioned fighter against a conditioned fighter not just a person in good shape.

A fighter is trained to hit and be hit so if those are the conditions then celtic_crippler hit it right on the nose.

I took the word 'conditioned' to mean a person who is in above average shape. For reference purpose, I'll use a UFC/MMA fighter, ie: Frank Mir, Ken or Frank Shamrock.

In that other thread I made reference to, I took it as a particular kick, in that case, a side kick, being thrown against a 'conditioned' fighter, not working. Perhaps I misunderstood the OP in that other thread, but that was the impression I got. I'm nowhere near in the shape those guys are, so again, I took it as someone who is in average shape, throwing a kick to someone in above average shape.

Mike

 

[MJS]

IMO, a Martial Artist, putting their physical condition aside, is trained or should be trained, to know what tools they have available to them, how to apply those tools, where to hit on the body to get the most out of the strike and what strike to use for the area we are picking as a target.

Sure, some shots will get quicker results than others. Someone mentioned Keith Hackney fighting that huge Sumo guy. Were those kicks effective? They didn't seem to stop him, and as it was said, it took a hit to the head to bring the guy down. On the other hand, Marco Ruas fought Paul Varleans(sp) and repeatedly slammed his thighs with kicks, eventually dropping him.

Speaking for myself, I don't like to think of any shot as a fight stopper. I don't put alot of faith in the 1 shot 1 kill mentality although it can and does happen. I like to use a series of shots, perhaps setting up a target with 1 or 2 others. I'm 5'10 so trying to hit someone in the face who stands 6'5 may not be the best option. Then again, I don't care how conditioned someone is, you can't condition your groin. If I can bring someone down with a groin shot, then perhaps I can get to my original target..the face.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I took it as someone who is in average shape, throwing a kick to someone in above average shape.

Mike

Then, IMO, a strike may not be as effective but that is not to say that what Celtic crippler may not apply.

A trained fighter is trained a bit harder at taking hits and hitting than the average MA person out there today. However I do know people that are very well trained that are likely not in the same condition as a trained fighter but if they hit one they would likely cause them major problems due to the power of their strikes but then I would not call these people the average MA person that I see in my area either.

So I guess the best answer I can give, IMO, is maybe.

 

[Sukerkin]

Not having ever having been a 'big guy', my training has always been done with the realisation that if I had to fight I would not be doing it in toe-to-toe, 'trading blows' kind of way.

The one time I had to actually defend myself what transpired is exactly as I would have expected. It's also why altho' I think sparring is great fun and useful in it's own way, it has not got the practical use that many think it has.

I did not mess around trying to punch and kick, dodge and block, in classic movie style. This was a fight where the consequences of me not getting away were serious - so I broke things. Three moves and it was over enough for me to run away.

The guy who gets up after you've broken his knee is the one that will beat you.

Conditioning and fitness help for the long haul and for sport fighting and for absorbing the kind of hits you take when someone is not fighting 'seriously' (by which I mean in fear for their life). It doesn't help at all if someone snaps your elbow or breaks your knee from the side.

Oh and side kicks work just fine for the latter application. Of course that is just my experience and only from a single incident but the logic seems sounds to me. If the guy is a big athlete or fat, don't bother punching or kicking him in the stomach - do something that will work regardless.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring. The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.

So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there. Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes. Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape. These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?

Mike,

A couple of comments form my experience and observations.

I have trained with a guy that you could kick in the abs with a side kick and he would just take it. He was that solid and in that shape. But, not everyone is in the shape so it might be better on others.

I have also seen some pretty big guys that are FAT and really out of shape. I saw a guy do a turning kick and the guy just took it in the FAT and kept coming. When he got to me. I kicked him in the knees. He looked at me got mad and stated I was cheating. I laughed and kicked him again and when he tired to move to avoid the pain, I rushed him and knocked him down where he then tried to crawl under a car for protection. (* Only his head would fit nothing else would have. *) Many people were really impressed with how powerful my kicks must have been to get him down. They were not that great of kicks. They were average even counting my adrenaline. But it was an area he had no padding and also was easy to injure and he may have had knee pain already from his weight.

So as in anything, I used my knowledge of the body and my skill set as others at that time in my training and even now could have kicked him in the head, but that was not in my options. So, used techniques that I knew and could affect him in a manner I was intending.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The one time I had to actually defend myself what transpired is exactly as I would have expected. It's also why altho' I think sparring is great fun and useful in it's own way, it has not got the practical use that many think it has.

I did not mess around trying to punch and kick, dodge and block, in classic movie style. This was a fight where the consequences of me not getting away were serious - so I broke things. Three moves and it was over enough for me to run away.

The guy who gets up after you've broken his knee is the one that will beat you.

Conditioning and fitness help for the long haul and for sport fighting and for absorbing the kind of hits you take when someone is not fighting 'seriously' (by which I mean in fear for their life). It doesn't help at all if someone snaps your elbow or breaks your knee from the side.

Oh and side kicks work just fine for the latter application. Of course that is just my experience and only from a single incident but the logic seems sounds to me. If the guy is a big athlete or fat, don't bother punching or kicking him in the stomach - do something that will work regardless.

Agreed, that is why back in my security day when the professional wrestler charged at me I simply side stepped a tripped him. I was not going to go to the ground with him that was for damn sure. I'm 6'1' tall and at that time I was about 220 and training rather hard, but he was about 6'5" tall and a bit heavier than I

He fell down and laid there for a bit apparently linoleum on top of concrete was a bit harder than what he was use to.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ouch! :rei:.

 

[zDom]

A trained fighter will probably either parry or side step most side kicks and end up behind you. In MMA, that results in chokes and takedowns.

Oh really? Is that what always happens?

Maybe this is only the result if a fighter not trained in kicking tries a side kick.

I might say that a trained kicker would impale the would-be parry/sidestepper resulting in a knockdown and stunned solar plexus. But then, I would just be making claim based on bias when in reality there are a LOT of factors which determine what really ends up happening when two fighters face off.