Teaching the student how to fight

JowGaWolf

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Some of those wrestling street fights demonstrate why knowledge of ground fighting is important.
Here's my analysis of what I saw

First video.
The wrestler THROWS the first attacker on the ground. Then QUICKLY GETS BACK TO HIS FEET. He doesn't stay on the ground and wait for the other person so he can ground fight. The wrestler then TAKES DOWN the second attacker on the ground, punches him a few times then gets back up to his feet and Soccer kicks him. I don't know if he realized that the person running in was the lady or if he was preparing for a possible third attack but he did it by standing back up. He won the fight.

Second Video
The guy wins by THROWING the person on the ground and he does so by remaining standing.

Third Video.
Not sure how this one ended, But THROWS the guy down 2 times and looked like he was going for a third. He had the dominant position, but the other guy is able to get to his feet which is the better place to be even though he got slammed twice. My guess is that every slam will be less powerful and it didn't look like that third throwing attempt would be more powerful than the first.

Fourth Video
Guy wins by THROWING

Fifth Video
Multiple THROWS

Sixth Video
Starts with THROWING the opponent to the ground then KEEPS THE FIGHT ON THE GROUND. Here knowing how to fight on the ground would be of big use.


Out of all of the clips including the ground fighting one. I would say the thing that was most dangerous is thing to watch out is the THROW. The best way to deal with that is train how to defend against the throw.

  • 6 out of 6 videos show that the Throw was effective and was the first move taken, with the exception of the guy who fought 2 people at once. Where he used a single leg take down and then ended the fight with a soccer kick.
  • 1 out of 6 videos actually show extensive ground fighting
  • 5 out of 6 videos show people getting back to their feet or staying on their feet be it the wrestler or the non-wrestler.
If these guys are wrestlers, then the majority of the wrestlers opt to end the fight on their feet not on the ground, with the THROW being the most effective skill set used in all 6 videos.
 
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Hanzou

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If these guys are wrestlers, then the majority of the wrestlers opt to end the fight on their feet not on the ground, with the THROW being the most effective skill set used in all 6 videos.

Which is a bad idea, because continuously dumping someone on their head will eventually kill them, or conversely, if the person pops back up after getting thrown to the ground, he has another opportunity to knock YOU out. If you're a high school kid or a young adult, you don't want to go to prison for getting in a school yard brawl. Putting someone to sleep with a choke is far more preferable.

If you throw someone to the ground in a one on one situation, finish them on the ground, unless your initial (or second) throw knocks them out. It really take little effort to be in a dominant position after throwing someone to the ground.
 

JowGaWolf

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After watching the Wrestler videos. I would say that the biggest mistake that I see Wing Chun practioners make is trying to escape grappling with strikes. You can use striking to prevent grappling attempts but once the person grabs you then you need to address grappling with grappling. There are tons of ways to do this from a Kung Fu perspective but it requires that your escape to grab.

Trying to punch your way out of someone who has grabbed you is high risk. In my sparring videos, when someone is successful in grabbing me, I immediately switched from striking to grappling. I don't see how one would be able to maintain a punching structure that is solid enough to continue striking. Elbows to the back will only work if you have the structure to deliver one. If you are able to maintain that structure then you would have to have a really strong elbow technique in order to weaken or stop the take down technique. Most people who do take downs are actually at an angle that is slanted so there's that.

Invite some wrestlers over and have them just take you to the ground all day. Work on trying to escape or avoid the take downs. They will have stronger grips than most Kung Fu practitioners so it'll be a good benchmark for understanding how your training needs to adjust.
 

Hanzou

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What if that person never wakes up?

It only takes a few seconds for a person to pass out, and depending on the choke you can feel them going limp. You would need to hold the choke for a lot longer than that in order to inflict death or serious brain damage.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It only takes a few seconds for a person to pass out, and depending on the choke you can feel them going limp. You would need to hold the choke for a lot longer than that in order to inflict death or serious brain damage.
I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.

Chang-police-demo.jpg


kneeing-hold-1.gif
 

Hanzou

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I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.

Snapping someone's arms or legs, while barrels of fun, sets you up for some nasty lawsuits.

Obviously if you're fighting some criminal trying to kill you, snap to your heart's content. However, if its a schoolyard brawl, I'd be careful with maiming someone.


Yet another reason I don't fight against choke holds in practice.
 

JowGaWolf

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Which is a bad idea, because continuously dumping someone on their head will eventually kill them, or conversely, if the person pops back up after getting thrown to the ground, he has another opportunity to knock YOU out. If you're a high school kid or a young adult, you don't want to go to prison for getting in a school yard brawl. Putting someone to sleep with a choke is far more preferable.
The only kindness I'll show to an attacker is when he's no longer attacking. Until then, stuff like that doesn't factor into my self-defense. Never has. Not saying that you are wrong. I'm just saying I don't think of my attackers well being. The only thing I want to show is me being attacked and then defending myself. Anything else would be, "my attacker landed badly." as many more people are slammed and don't die.

This is how i look at it. A person who attacks me is no longer concerned about their safety, which is why I'm being attacked. If they were actually concerned about their safety then they wouldn't have attacked in me in the first place. A person who attacks me no longer cares about my safety, which is why they attack me. If they actually cared about me being safe then they would have never attacked me to harm me. Because of this my response will reflect this reality. This is just how my mind works in terms of self-defense.
 

JowGaWolf

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I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.

Chang-police-demo.jpg


kneeing-hold-1.gif
I think breaking that arm will be much safer than the joint lock. I'm not trying to detain my attacker, I'm trying to keep my attacker from attacking me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the biggest mistake that I see Wing Chun practioners make is trying to escape grappling with strikes.
The WC system may not look at a solution from all different angles.

2 major strategies are not addressed in the following clip.

1. Wrist grabbing - If A uses right hand to hold on B's left wrist, and pull B's left arm across B's body, most of A's goal can be achieved.
2. Hook punch - B's left arm can borrow A's right arm downward pressure, B can then rotate B's left arm into a left hook punch toward A's head.

IMO, to train WC fighters, all strategy should be addressed (such as wrist grabbing and hook punch).

 
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dvcochran

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Correct. There are dangers and risks with putting people to sleep. Which is a funny way of saying it, because the technique isn't putting them to sleep. It's cutting off oxygen to the brain.
Yes, a rear choke if done correctly is restricting blood flow of the carotid arteries so, by virtue, it cuts off oxygen supply to the brain. If has little to nothing to do with the actual throat.
I am certain I have choked out over 100 people. There are subtleties to learn outside the actual choke. It is NOT an easily learned skill and Not something that should be done haphazardly.
For me the hardest thing is when people fake going out and resist the hold. The time is different for every person and situation. If a person has already exerted themselves it takes a lesser amount of time to bring them down. Something we tried to avoid because it adds a variable that is harder to predict. Creates a bigger grey area.
 

Hanzou

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Correct. There are dangers and risks with putting people to sleep. Which is a funny way of saying it, because the technique isn't putting them to sleep. It's cutting off oxygen to the brain.

In the spectrum of ending a fight though, it's by far the least dangerous to the assailant. More people have died from knockouts or getting slammed on their head than from a stroke induced by a chokehold.
 

JowGaWolf

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The WC system may not look at a solution from all different angles.

2 major principles are missing in the following clip.

1. Obtain clinch - If A uses right hand to hold on B's left wrist, and pull B's left arm across B's body, most of A's goal can be achieved.
2. Borrow force - B's left arm can borrow A's right arm downward pressure, B can then rotate B's left arm into a left hook punch toward A's head.

IMO, to train WC fighters, all strategy should be addressed.

Video was too complicated for me. I had to watch the video 5 times in order to figure out what he was trying to show. Which is basically this.
Pin lead hand and strike over pinned arm. Too much explaining lol. He's worst than me with the explaining lol.
5db16b5c8818ec9a22a96296e2295136--tiger-claw-marshal-arts.jpg


With your statement about B, I think he angles his elbow downward in order to interrupt any effort to loop into a left hook, but I really can't tell as he changes the approach and then take an angle. Which would make the looping more difficult to pull of with any power. In the first attempt he stays in the same spot, directly in front on the second attempt he takes an angle. The later on he gives up the opportunity to punch someone in the riibs? Not sure what he was getting at.

But your 1 and 2 is correct, which is why in the picture above, Hung Ga uses a circular movement so you can't borrow force to loop into a hook. Just from my own personal experience one should be really careful with how they slap that lead guard down.
 

JowGaWolf

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In the spectrum of ending a fight though, it's by far the least dangerous to the assailant.
This doesn't make sense to me from a self-defense perspective. I don't ever remember trying to use the least dangerous of my strikes when someone is attacking. Again, not saying you are wrong. Just pointing out that my brain doesn't function that way. If, I'm being attacked then I'm looking for the quickest way to end the attack.

The only thing I was pointing out is that people really aren't "going to sleep" even though that's how we often refer to it.
 

Hanzou

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This doesn't make sense to me from a self-defense perspective. I don't ever remember trying to use the least dangerous of my strikes when someone is attacking. Again, not saying you are wrong. Just pointing out that my brain doesn't function that way. If, I'm being attacked then I'm looking for the quickest way to end the attack.

The only thing I was pointing out is that people really aren't "going to sleep" even though that's how we often refer to it.

Well consider that the person you're defending yourself from isn't always someone you want to potentially kill or seriously injure. For example if your father is drunk and attacks you and you need to neutralize him, are you going to suplex him on concrete? Are you going to punch him in the head multiple times until he's knocked out? Are you going to break his legs?

In situations like that, a choke is preferable. You can completely neutralize him without doing serious damage.
 

JowGaWolf

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For example if your father is drunk and attacks you and you need to neutralize him, are you going to suplex him on concrete? Are you going to punch him in the head multiple times until he's knocked out? Are you going to break his legs?
It depends on what he's attacking me with. If he's that drunk then that's an advantage to me, because of the physical effects on motor skill and balance caused by the alcohol. His fighting ability is degraded. Which is different than a sober person trying to hit me. All I would need to do is push him if that much. My father is old, so he would have to be really drunk to fight family. Which is the one thing he cares a lot about. But I'll play your game. With a real rule that I live by.

My family rule taught to me by my father: No one family member is more important than the whole family. If that one family member's actions threatens the well being of the family then he or she will be treated accordingly.

If I had an abusive drunk father, then yes, I would punch, kick, and break arms if necessary. According that family rule. It doesn't mean that I love him less. But if my father became such a dangerous threat then yes. Sort of like saying if your father came in the house and started shooting at you with a gun, would you return fire, if you are able to get to your gun. You may hate to shoot back at your own father, but that may be the only option other than dying.

You are literally talking to someone who often talks about cutting off emotions when fighting so that you can do the horrible things that may be necessary as part of self-defense. Buy that's how I am, and how I train my mental state.

Now, would my father shoot me if I start attacking him and my mom. Yep. I'm 99% sure he would shoot me. Would his intent be to kill me. Probably not. All he would care about is that the bullet hit me and no one else.
 

JowGaWolf

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It depends on what he's attacking me with. If he's that drunk then that's an advantage to me, because of the physical effects on motor skill and balance caused by the alcohol. His fighting ability is degraded. Which is different than a sober person trying to hit me. All I would need to do is push him if that much. My father is old, so he would have to be really drunk to fight family. Which is the one thing he cares a lot about. But I'll play your game. With a real rule that I live by.

My family rule taught to me by my father: No one family member is more important than the whole family. If that one family member's actions threatens the well being of the family then he or she will be treated accordingly.

If I had an abusive drunk father, then yes, I would punch, kick, and break arms if necessary. According that family rule. It doesn't mean that I love him less. But if my father became such a dangerous threat then yes. Sort of like saying if your father came in the house and started shooting at you with a gun, would you return fire, if you are able to get to your gun. You may hate to shoot back at your own father, but that may be the only option other than dying.

You are literally talking to someone who often talks about cutting off emotions when fighting so that you can do the horrible things that may be necessary as part of self-defense. Buy that's how I am, and how I train my mental state.

Now, would my father shoot me if I start attacking him and my mom. Yep. I'm 99% sure he would shoot me. Would his intent be to kill me. Probably not. All he would care about is that the bullet hit me and no one else.
This isn't me being tough. This is me understanding of where I fit in my family and where the limits are drawn. My family believes in spankings so I know they are able to cause physical pain to their children. The amount of physical pain will always be appropriate to the danger the believe they are in. So if I come in like a mad dog, then their response will be the same. They may not like what has to be done but they will do it. I never liked spanking my son but I did it when felt there was a need.
 

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