Tang Soo Do Root Identification

[dancingalone]

There seems to be an undercurrent to identify TSD back to Okinawan karate rather than Japanese karate. True or false?

A new studio owner in town described his art to me as a Korean reblending of Okinawan karate. It's not the first time, I've heard such a descriptor.

 

[Makalakumu]

That is the sentiment. A major effort was made to erase any connection to Japanese karate because of the Korean bias toward Japan after the war. TSD, however, is derived from Shotokan. It's founders trained in that style and NOT Okinawan karate.

 

[DMcHenry]

The last ones to use the term TSD were Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan and it's derivitives. I don't believe GM Hwang ever studied Shoto Kan. His original style of Hwa Soo Do was derived from training in Chinese arts. He has written that he picked up the forms from a book in Okanawan Karate out of a library.

Some other founders such as Won Kuk Lee who was the first to open a Tang Soo Do dojang did actually study Shoto Kan, but that art was later changed to Tae Kwon Do.

I guess with Shoto Kan's founder having learned Okanawan Karate it's not a hard stretch, but how far back do you go?

A good example of TSD being closer to Japanese Shoto Kan than Okanawan is look at the basic form set - Pyungan Chodan is similar to the Japanese ShotoKan Heian Shodan, but in Okanawan Karate it is Pinan Nidan, and visa versa for Pyunan Edan is like Heian Nidan but is the first Pinan Shodan kata. The first 2 kata are reversed between Okanawan and Japanese arts - and TSD follows the Japanese art.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hwang Kee was a student of Won Kuk Lee (WKL earned a nidan in the art). HK had about a year and a half of training with WKL before branching out on his own.

 

[DMcHenry]

I've never heard that before, just rumers HK did train for a little while (maybe 6 months?) with WKL and achieved green belt. {shrug} who knows for sure...

 

[Makalakumu]

I've never heard that before, just rumers HK did train for a little while (maybe 6 months?) with WKL and achieved green belt. {shrug} who knows for sure...

The rumors come from an interview with WKL where he states that HK was part of the CDK and trained at the dojo for about a year and a half. Then he went off on his own and started teaching TSD MDK.

 

[dancingalone]

The rumors come from an interview with WKL where he states that HK was part of the CDK and trained at the dojo for about a year and a half. Then he went off on his own and started teaching TSD MDK.

Hmm, even if true HK couldn't have been happy about WKL publicizing it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmm, even if true HK couldn't have been happy about WKL publicizing it.

It's a "dark secret" of TSD. There were active efforts, years ago, to completely erase the Japanese Origins of the art and the fact that HK learned some of his hyung from books. All sorts of stories were concocted.

I wrote a book that details this and the origin of the art from the best resources that I could find. Hopefully, in the future, we can use these resources to better understand the objectives of what we are doing.

 

[MasterPistella]

According to Dr. Paik (Ki Whang Kim's senior student) they "trained together" Meaning KWK, HK, LWK, BJR and others. Neither was teacher, neither was student. They shared what they knew with each other freely. This is also how the forms SRJK came into the MDK curriculum & in exchange HK had his people sponsor KWK to come to the US under the TSD flag. & the way it has it's roots back to Okinawa.....Gichin Funikoshi studies martial arts in Okinawa. Kara te used to mean China Hand. The Japanese changed it to make it more their own. Now means empty hand.

 

[dancingalone]

According to Dr. Paik (Ki Whang Kim's senior student) they "trained together" Meaning KWK, HK, LWK, BJR and others. Neither was teacher, neither was student. They shared what they knew with each other freely. This is also how the forms SRJK came into the MDK curriculum & in exchange HK had his people sponsor KWK to come to the US under the TSD flag. & the way it has it's roots back to Okinawa.....Gichin Funikoshi studies martial arts in Okinawa. Kara te used to mean China Hand. The Japanese changed it to make it more their own. Now means empty hand.

But, LWK apparently considered HK to be his student if he awarded him a green belt?

The Funakoshi link is a tenuous one if one is trying to make the case that TSD approximates Okinawan karate. Effectively, the type of karate that was transmitted to men like LWK was already Nippon-ized with all the changes Funakoshi and his students made.

 

[MasterPistella]

There is no verifiable proof he ever gave HK a green belt. He did however help HK hone his skills with the pyong ahn forms as far as the transition moves. So did BJR who was also a dan holder under Funakoshi. I'm not denying that it is a more Nippon-ized version, but the books he learned from were before many of the changes were made. The way he got the later information from Lee, Ro, & the others was after the changes were made. The "evolution" if you will of Funakoshi's original work. Just pointing out how the link to Okinawa can be made. BJR told the Choi brothers (Joon Pyo & Young Pyo) back in 1972 if I remember right that his instructor was Funakoshi & to never deny that Shotokan is their "big brother". If one really wants to stretch it, they can say the influence was from China since it was the Chinese immigrants who introduced the martial arts to Okinawa. But I'm not that flexible. lol

 

[tellner]

I'm afraid it's true. There have been several researchers, notably Dakin Burdick, who pretty thoroughly uncovered the undeniable Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. It's what the "Masters of the Original Kwans" had learned aside from one who may have had some Chinese martial arts background. The Japanese really did wipe out just about all of Korean martial arts culture. What they left were Judo, Karate and Kendo which were later Koreanised into Yudo, TKD/TSD and Gumdo.

Most Koreans would rather die than admit it, but that's the plodding, literal, scientific Western truth of the matter.

 

[MasterPistella]

I guess I've been lucky to train under some progressive instructors. Master G S Ko (GM C S Kim's brother-in-law) told me of the Okinawan/Japanese influence as far back as 1982. He even kept a copy of "This is Karate" by Mas Oyama on the book case in his office. During a test in 2001 one of the sa dan candidates answered HK when asked "who developed the Gi Cho forms?" GM Pak chastised him for repeating propaganda & explained where they really came from.

Do I blame the older Masters for not wanting to admit the Japanese influence? No, we would have probably done the same thing if our country were treated the way Korea was. As a people who were never subjugated, we can't understand the mindset they have. But since Japan just announced it will stand behind South Korea with the proof North Korea sank their Navy vessel, I think some old feeling might be getting set aside some more.

 

[dancingalone]

There is no verifiable proof he ever gave HK a green belt. He did however help HK hone his skills with the pyong ahn forms as far as the transition moves. So did BJR who was also a dan holder under Funakoshi. I'm not denying that it is a more Nippon-ized version, but the books he learned from were before many of the changes were made. The way he got the later information from Lee, Ro, & the others was after the changes were made. The "evolution" if you will of Funakoshi's original work. Just pointing out how the link to Okinawa can be made. BJR told the Choi brothers (Joon Pyo & Young Pyo) back in 1972 if I remember right that his instructor was Funakoshi & to never deny that Shotokan is their "big brother". If one really wants to stretch it, they can say the influence was from China since it was the Chinese immigrants who introduced the martial arts to Okinawa. But I'm not that flexible. lol

<shrugs> I'm an Okinawan karate man myself, although I've flirted early on with the Korean systems. I've never run into a TSD federation that teaches formal partner sets or emphasized body conditioning with the old tools the way Okinawan systems do. There's also kobudo to consider before we even get to the thorny topic of bunkai.

I'm not knocking tang soo do at all, but these attributes are what distinguish Okinawan karate from Japanese karate. And tang soo do generally follow the line of Japanese karate in these aspects too.

I understand the cultural wish to de-link from Japanese culture if one is Korean. Respectfully, I don't see why Westerners would want to repeat the same myths though like this fellow did.

By the way, is there any documentation that BJR actually studied with Funakoshi. I thought no certificates or rosters survived that ever listed any Korean on the Japanese rolls with the exception of Byung In Yoon being acknowledged as a 4th dan by Kanken Toyama.

 

[Brother John]

I'm afraid it's true. There have been several researchers, notably Dakin Burdick, who pretty thoroughly uncovered the undeniable Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. It's what the "Masters of the Original Kwans" had learned aside from one who may have had some Chinese martial arts background. The Japanese really did wipe out just about all of Korean martial arts culture. What they left were Judo, Karate and Kendo which were later Koreanised into Yudo, TKD/TSD and Gumdo.

Most Koreans would rather die than admit it, but that's the plodding, literal, scientific Western truth of the matter.

That's what I'd read too.
I trained for sometime in TSD/MDK and later in college I studied Shotokan for a time. VERY similar in many respects, except for a stronger emphasis on kicks in the TSD/MDK.

Your Brother
John

 

[MasterPistella]

I don't think it's a matter or WANTING to repeat the "lies" if you will, but only repeating what you have been taught. If a child is taught something is school that is wrong and grows up hearing that year after year is he lying when he repeats it? To him, no, it's not a lie. I see it more as people are just repeating what they have been told. Don't forget, when Funakoshi brought his art to Japan, it was mostly to be used in the school system for kids so they dropped most of the bunkai teachings. Unfortunately, that loss transfered on the TSD. Funny you should mention BIY. A deal was made between HK & KWK that if KWK got BIY to teach HK his Sip Pal Gi, KWK could be sponsored to come to America. That's how SRJK, SHY, & JK came into the original MDK curriculum. & I for one didn't take anything here that was said as knocking TSD at all. I think this has been one of the best threads I've seen on a few site in a while. I mentioned my old instructor Master Ko earlier. He did things that were very different when he first came to America. He didn't speak much English so the training was more....physical. We used to do the conditioning, and some partner drills, I think because that was the easiest thing for him to do. Not much explaining. We had makiwaras lining the wall. As time went on tho, he was made to take them down. He did love to beat us with the bamboo sword too. Jook do in Korean.

 

[dancingalone]

So the 'kung fu' forms in the Moo Duk Kwan come from Byung In Yoon? I thought Hwang Kee knew them himself from an unknown source.

 

[MasterPistella]

He learned Yang Tai Chi, but the SPG he learned from BIY. BIY was also the one who taught it to Byung Jik Ro. Some of his students still do it. J P Choi from Columbus has them as part of his curriculum. Y P Choi in Indianapolis has a separate "Kung Fu" class at his school. BIY may have been the unknown source, I only learned about this about 9 or 10 years ago. Master Peter Paik (Dr. Paik's son) also still teaches these forms. & he made a comment one time as to the authenticity of SRJK. But I'm not getting involved in the arguments.

 

[dancingalone]

I have seen some of the kwon bup forms preserved from Byung In Yoon's teachings like 'doju san'. Sure enough, they're quite different from the karate heritage forms with entirely different principles for maintaining structure.

Master Pistella, are you fond of the 'kung fu' forms? Most of the Korean karate people I have seen performing them do them rather poorly by my inexperienced eye, and I'd rather see them concentrate on the hard style forms rather than spend valuable time on material that I don't think they understand.

 

[MasterPistella]

I actually started in CMA 30 some years ago. SSSSHHHH People might think I'm old. When that school closed in 1979 I went to TSD. I am very fond of the forms, but have kept up a bit with it over the years. I think if they find a good instructor, it can be a nice compliment to TSD. I just learned the first of the forms that was in the old MDK teachings (Jung Kwan) from GM J P Choi. Well, I learned one side. I'm supposed to learn side B & So Ho Yun in July if I can make it to his summer camp. If not, then in the fall. I see what you mean about not looking very nice. I don't think I look very good doing it right now, but don't have a lot of time to practice on anything. I would also like to study Hapkido more if the time arises. But I'm a training tramp. I'll train in anything anytime. Well, almost anything. There are a few I won't (Ashida Kim type stuff)