Tang Soo Do Root Identification

[puunui]

It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial. Is this incorrect?

Your statement that it "is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial." is incorrect.

What the Modern History book translation actually states is this: CHOI Hong Hi said "After
independence, LEE Kwan Jang was charged with acts of pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial."

There are no "documents" provided or cited to to substantiate the claim that GM Lee "was charged with acts of pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." So basically what the authors of the Modern History book did was what I did, which is relay what someone else said. If you are unwilling or unable to accept my "documentation", then certainly you cannot accept similar types of evidence of others.

 

[puunui]

It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do,

Forgot to ask. What is your documentation that the above is the title of the book that you are citing to, "The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do" vs. "A Modern History of Taekwondo"?

 

[Makalakumu]

Your statement that it "is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial." is incorrect.

What the Modern History book translation actually states is this: CHOI Hong Hi said "After
independence, LEE Kwan Jang was charged with acts of pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial."

There are no "documents" provided or cited to to substantiate the claim that GM Lee "was charged with acts of pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." So basically what the authors of the Modern History book did was what I did, which is relay what someone else said. If you are unwilling or unable to accept my "documentation", then certainly you cannot accept similar types of evidence of others.

Like I said, write a book and publish it with your name so people can substantiate your stories. If the history is wrong or full of holes, fill in the holes with what you know and try and correct it. If what you are saying is correct, then it is a common misconception that Korea had a strong anti-Japanese bias and that needs to be corrected.

The difference between you and me and everyone else who wrote a book is that we did it and you didn't. Get your material out there and put your name and reputation on it and see where it goes.

 

[Makalakumu]

I am only anonymous to you.

I asked you four times privately verify your information and allow me to correct any errors I may have made. Instead, you've made every effort to misdirect or change the subject. Essentially, what needs to happen is that you need to publish your personal stories with your real name so that they can be weighed against the opinion of anyone else who has experience with GM Lee. If your stories match what other people are saying and it is overwhelmingly obvious that this point of view is true, then people can accept your personal stories for fact.

Of course, you could always argue that Nakayama Sensei is merely claiming to be repeating what Funakoshi Sensei said, without documentation, which is what you accuse me of. But that still would not be the same as documentation for your claim that GM Lee did not come up with the term Tang Soo Do.

Did GM Lee coin the characters?

Tang Soo = 唐手
Kara Te = 唐手

If GM Lee coined the term Tang Soo then he also must have coined Kara Te because they are exactly the same. Is that what you are claiming?

 

[Makalakumu]

Forgot to ask. What is your documentation that the above is the title of the book that you are citing to, "The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do" vs. "A Modern History of Taekwondo"?

Pardon me. The Modern History of Taekwondo. LOL!

 

[puunui]

The difference between you and me and everyone else who wrote a book is that we did it and you didn't. Get your material out there and put your name and reputation on it and see where it goes.

No, the difference between you and me is that I went out and actually spoke with the people who made the history, and before I started doing that, I acquired and read every single martial art book, magazine or publication that I could lay my hands on. And my material is out there. It's in your book, remember?

 

[puunui]

Did GM Lee coin the characters?

Tang Soo = 唐手
Kara Te = 唐手

If GM Lee coined the term Tang Soo then he also must have coined Kara Te because they are exactly the same. Is that what you are claiming?

The two characters you post above are the same character, Tang.

And no he didn't coin the term tangsoo. No one said that he did. GM Lee coined the term tangsoodo, which was not in use until he created it. As Nakayama Sensei explains, the term Tang or Tou was changed to Kong or Kara at the same time that the back end Jutsu or Sool was changed to Do, that this was the important change, not the tou to kara. So it went from Tang Soo Sool to Kong Soo Do. There was no Tang Soo Do until GM LEE Won Kuk used it. My documentation is Nakayama Sensei's words below.

Again, here is what NAKAYAMA Masatoshi Sensei stated in the book, Conversations with the Master: Masatoshi Nakayama, page 32:

"Well, the characters for karate had become rather well known by the 1930's, but they were still read "Chinese hand". In 1935, Master Funakoshi wrote Karate-do Kyohan and proposed that the characters be changed to "empty hand".... But more importantly, he also proposed that karate-jutsu, the technique of karate, be changed to karate-do, karate as a way of life. This caused tremendous uproar among some of the older, more traditional Okinawan masters of the time, and they took a strong stand against him in the newspapers. They demanded to why he wanted to remove karate from its Okinawan and Chinese roots. His reply to them was very interesting. He said, in effect, that since karate had spread to the Japanese mainland and been accepted by the intelligentsia in Japan, it had ceased to be a local, Okinawan martial art. He said it had grown to universal proportions and acceptance, and should therefore be elevated to equal status with kendo, Japan's oldest martial art, and judo, which was very popular."

 

[puunui]

I asked you four times privately verify your information and allow me to correct any errors I may have made. Instead, you've made every effort to misdirect or change the subject.

Actually you are changing the subject, which is why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or lacking in "documentation".

Essentially, what needs to happen is that you need to publish your personal stories with your real name so that they can be weighed against the opinion of anyone else who has experience with GM Lee. If your stories match what other people are saying and it is overwhelmingly obvious that this point of view is true, then people can accept your personal stories for fact.

that already has happened. And they are not my personal stories; it is what happened according to GM LEE Won Kuk and others, which I have on audio and video tape. I also have every single martial arts photo and martial arts document that GM Lee had in his possession. He freely let me scan whatever I wanted because he said I was like his grandson. It wasn't easy to gain that trust and acceptance. Try it and see for yourself how open the pioneers are and let us know what sort of results you get.

 

[Makalakumu]

Let me see what you got? Or write a book. It sounds like you have the background to do it. If you info checks you deserve all the accolades. I don't understand why you even want to waste your time talking to someone you think is a complete hack.

 

[Makalakumu]

Let me see what you got? If you've written a book or books, let's see the titles. Put them down and claim them. Otherwise what's the point in talking to someone you think is a total hack? What do you hope to get from this discussion?

 

[Makalakumu]

The two characters you post above are the same character, Tang.

And no he didn't coin the term tangsoo. No one said that he did. GM Lee coined the term tangsoodo, which was not in use until he created it.

Let's try this again.

唐 = China

手 = Hand

道 = Way

The two characters I posted before do not both mean Tang. If the whole thing is put together is pronounced differently in a different dialect or language, a person cannot claim that. It would be like me claiming the word buch which is German for book. It's just the pronounciation of the word in a different language.

No one is denying that GM Lee was the first to teach karate in Korea. He did not coin the term Tang Soo Do.

Now let's get clear about your other claim. Are you saying that there was no anti-Japanese bias in Korea or are you saying the GM Lee did not have an anti-Japanese bias? I think the former is quite well documented. The latter is definitely subject for debate. If GM Lee remained true to the origins despite political pressure, I think that is great! If the interview he gave is mistranslated and mangles his intent, I'd like to see an original transcript of the interview and check it against what is published. You said you knew the people involved. You'd be in the perfect position to actually check this and debunk the interview. Go for it!

 

[puunui]

Let me see what you got?

Sorry but that stuff is for me, not you.

If you've written a book or books, let's see the titles. Put them down and claim them.

Never wrote a book, but I have posted enough information to fill a book.

Otherwise what's the point in talking to someone you think is a total hack?

I don't know if you are a total hack. I do think that as a 2nd Dan, I would think that your focus would or should be on other things, rather than writing books.

What do you hope to get from this discussion?

Hopefully some answers to my questions, which you have not been forthcoming about.

 

[puunui]

No one is denying that GM Lee was the first to teach karate in Korea.

Actually there are people who do dispute that GM Lee was the first to teach "karate" in Korea.

He did not coin the term Tang Soo Do.

Do you have any documentation for this claim of yours? If not, the discussion cannot proceed, for reasons you stated above. I have already posted my documentation to the contrary, quotes from the Nakayama Sensei interview, which you keep ignoring.

Now let's get clear about your other claim. Are you saying that there was no anti-Japanese bias in Korea or are you saying the GM Lee did not have an anti-Japanese bias?

I already answered this question. Try rereading my posts above. While you are doing that, check out the unanswered questions as well.

I think the former is quite well documented. The latter is definitely subject for debate. If GM Lee remained true to the origins despite political pressure, I think that is great! If the interview he gave is mistranslated and mangles his intent, I'd like to see an original transcript of the interview and check it against what is published. You said you knew the people involved. You'd be in the perfect position to actually check this and debunk the interview. Go for it!

Go do your own work. Part of the problem is if you read through the topic, is that you went from what GM Lee said to a general statement of "Koreans" hiding the Japanese origins of their art.

For example, GM CHOI Yong Sul has always stated that he learned his martial arts from TAKEDA Sokaku while he lived in Japan.

Yudo people also acknowledge that their art is Judo from Japan.

Kumdo people same thing, they acknowledge that their art is Kendo from Japan.

Same thing for Taekwondo, those who learned in Japan state quite clearly that they learned in Japan. Their direct students also acknowledge and state this as well. The two examples that pop into my mind, outside of what GM Lee and other pioneers have freely stated to me, is contained in General Choi's book, and also the Modern History book. General Choi constantly states that he learned Karate in Japan. The Modern History book starts off with the discussion about the original Kwan and how most of the founders studied Karate in Japan. The Modern History book also has references of pioneers either visiting Japan or taking team to Japan for exchanges.

 

[Makalakumu]

Let's start over. Restate your questions and I'll answer them the best I can.

 

[puunui]

Let's start over. Restate your questions and I'll answer them the best I can.

Let's start with these questions:

1) Why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or lacking in "documentation"?

2) What is your documentation that GM LEE Won Kuk did NOT create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool)?

3) If GM Lee did not create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool), then who did create the term, and where is your documentation in support of your answer?

 

[puunui]

In addition, there is the topic Documentation for "The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do that you have not responded to.

 

[Makalakumu]

1) Why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or lacking in "documentation"?

Here's

http://www.taekwondo.net/

allow_url_include is On (warning, you should have this param in Off state, or your site will unsafe)
Please go to the
Dolphin Troubleshooter
and solve the problem.

There's nothing here.

2) What is your documentation that GM LEE Won Kuk did NOT create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool)?

I'm saying that it's just a different reading the same characters for Karate Do and I showed you the characters and showed you that they were exactly the same. You are claiming that he created it. Saying that he coined the term is like saying that a person coins anything they assimilate into their culture.

3) If GM Lee did not create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool), then who did create the term, and where is your documentation in support of your answer?

No one knows who began using it. Funakoshi, Mabuni, and Motobu use it freely in their early writings. That's just the way it is with some things.

 

[Makalakumu]

In addition, there is the topic Documentation for "The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do that you have not responded to.

Check the other thread.

 

[puunui]

I'm saying that it's just a different reading the same characters for Karate Do and I showed you the characters and showed you that they were exactly the same. You are claiming that he created it. Saying that he coined the term is like saying that a person coins anything they assimilate into their culture.

Did you read my posts about this? Again, the term used in Okinawa was Toudejutsu, which is pronounced Karatejutsu in Japanese and Tang Soo Sool in Korean. FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei's first book published in Japan was titled Toudejutsu. It has been reprinted under the name Toudejutsu and Karatejutsu, which you can find on amazon.com if you don't believe me. I have both versions. When Funakoshi Sensei changed the first character from Tou/Kara/Tang to Kara/Kong(empty), he also changed the back or last character from Jutsu to Do. So the name when from Toudejutsu/Tang Soo Sool to Karatedo or Kong Soo Do. There was no usage of the term Tang Soo Do (pronounced Karatedo) in Japan, because, again, Funakoshi Sensei changed the first and last characters at the same time. This is where Nakayama Sensei's quote comes in, as documentation.

Do you understand what I am writing here? And if you do, where is your documentation to the contrary? I didn't see you cite to anything.

No one knows who began using it. Funakoshi, Mabuni, and Motobu use it freely in their early writings. That's just the way it is with some things.

No they did not. They use the term Toudejutsu or Kempo, not Toude Do or Tang Soo Do. But if you have a reference, please point me to it.

 

[Makalakumu]

This conversation is over. If you would like to speak to me privately, you can contact me.