Real or Misrepresented

[Master Todd Miller]

Greetings everyone,

Let me introduce myself, I am Todd Miller from up here in NH. I own and opperate Miller's Korean Martial Arts in Dover, NH.

I am wondering what the general opinion of EXPERIENCED Martial Artists is concerning people who misrepresent themselves?

Example:

A person is say a yellow belt, then the next year they are a 7th or 8th degree black belt? Or a person claims rank that is totally false?

Thanks for your thoughts
Master
Todd Miller

 

[someguy]

They are bad. Maybe a few exeptions to the rule. C't think of any reason why it would be good.

 

[Aegis]

I can't think of any good reason to misrepresent yourself. It's a really horrible thing to do to the general public, who are usually going to go for what looks like the higher ranked instructor, and is something that sites like this should help in trying to eliminate. Many people get good advice online and are told how to spot fakes, but there's not an awful lot that can be done other than that.

Information is everything, it's just a matter of getting it to the general public.

 

[pknox]

I believe that anyone who misrepresents themselves in such a manner is not only deceiving the public, but also living contrary to the ethics that the martial arts are supposed to project. In addition, they are not only hurting themselves, and the art they promote, but all arts in general -- when people repeatedly hear claims, and then consistently see them disproven as fraudulent, they begin to assume everyone is crooked - even the ones who aren't. To use two examples, think about what has happened with steroid use in sports, and also with politicians. Many people now believe every athlete is on the former, and it is impossible to find an honest member of the latter. All of this because of well publicized incidents that, though actually small in number, are evidently large in magnitude.

 

[Nightingale]

Sir, I think I'd be screaming "FRAUD" along with the rest of the martial arts community. Someone with yellow belt rank who puts on a master's belt damages us all and belittles what we work hard for.

 

[Jeff Boler]

I have a better one for you. What about someone who receives an "honorary" rank, yet treats it as legitimate?

 

[Nightingale]

personally, I dislike the idea of "honorary" rank. you've either earned rank in that system or you haven't.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Honorary rank is just that. I do not like the idea of someone holding rank but have no idea about training methods or technique.

Master
Todd Miller

 

[Jay Bell]

I'm also not a fan of honorary rank. In a world that for the most part, rank means something, it gives a false impression of someone's understanding and credentials.

 

[NYCRonin]

Hello Mr. Miller
Re: your question of real or misrepresented - those that attempt to do so should be exposed at every opportunity. The unknowing public walks into a local school, see 'pretty paper' and hears falsified claims -- they dont know a shihan from a sh**hole in the ground. They pay their $$, train and all to often by the lie. If ever called upon to put the 'lessons' to use - they could be killed. Even if never tested in reality, they wind up adding weight to the original lie...UNLESS the phoney is outed or they find the truth for themselves.
'Honorary degrees' are, of course; not worth the paper they are printed on. If you wish to show appreciation to someone -- have a nice citation printed up, give them an engraved pen-set...hell, give them a certificate for dinner at Red Lobster!
On forums like this it IS possible to expose those who claim more degrees than a thermometer. It should be done, particularly in very obvious cases; in my opinion.
To know a member is in over his head in his background claims, and to just sit by under the umbrella of 'playing nice' or political correctness; is no better than to quietly accept a charlatan opening up his own 'WhoHitsYou Ryu' school right next to your legitimate school and offering him a 'welcome to the Way' congratulatory cake.
You lose, his students lose...and ultimately the men and women that have taught us, inspired us and even loved us -- their efforts are cheapened. The very 'arts' themselves lose...we ALL lose something in the process.

"The only thing necesary for evil to win is for the good to stand by and do nothing" - or words to that effect.

Such acceptance would not be tolerated by any profession, from Doctors to janitors to nail technicians (manicurists).
Are we any less a 'professional' than they?

 

[Disco]

Allow me to add this to the mix. What about a legit Dan holder that lists multiple "High" rankings in several arts. How does he fit into the scheme of things or dosen't he?

 

[NYCRonin]

Actually, in a way; I am kinda glad we recently had a charlatan pass through here, Mr. Miller. I understand you are THE legitimate dan rank holder of a Korean method I had never heard of before.
I have swung a few blades over the years, even dabbled in Iaido.
I would ask, if you ever have the time; to post some info. about it in the Swordfighting area of this forum, if you have not already.

A liar can be outed delicately, we just have to address ourselves with decorum:
Every time you hear the obvious lie - question it.
Research into claims can be relatively easy to do.
I feel it is our responsability to do so.
Cant we all just get along on this point?

You just have to be 'artful'.
Only the legitimate can 'out' a phony.
Unless you do this, the arts lose their value to the world.
Never forget how hard you worked to EARN your rank.
Give 'reasonable doubt' when possible BUT deny THE LIAR!

The root cause of many posts referring to charlatans in the arts having found their way into this forum recently is easy to figure out. Just spell it out for yourself.

Sorry MOD's - I couldnt resist!

 

[NYCRonin]

I have known a few very legitimate multiple high ranking Dan holders, from various methods. Usually these legitimate ones are in their late 40's to 60's.
Every multiple high rank is usually as verifiable as a single one.
Those who have a legit high rank in one or more -- but are making claims for ranks that are not legit is also a liar and devoid of honesty and honor.
Of the few I have known personally, they generally mention only the one they are most active in. They go into greater detail as they get to know you.

 

[Kempo Guy]

Personally I don't care much (as I've trained in systems that have no rank for years).

What I do care about are the poor souls that are students of these frauds... But then again as with anything, "caveat emperor"; they should do their research before joining.


"Anyone who calls himself a master or allows his students to refer to him as 'master' in his presence, isn't a master."
- Takamura Yukiyoshi (1928 - 2000)

KG

 

[NYCRonin]

I second that statement.
Years ago, my (now) ex-wife was also in the 'arts'. She had been for years and was quite well known in certain circles.
One day the phone rang:
"Hello" I said.
"Yes, this is High Grandmaster Nashid of the **(name deleated to protect the egotistical)**. Please summon your wife to the phone" - said with such a pompus tone that I LAUGHED OUT LOUD right into the reciever. I thought it had to be a joke!
My wife came to the phone, while I calmed to a giggle; and she answered.

After she finished the call, I found out the guy was serious and supposedly always announced himself that way.
He viewed my laughter as 'disrespect' for his high rank and told her he would never call my home again because of it.

If only tele-marketers were that easy to get rid of.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Greetings, Mr. Miller...

I've known people with little rank (if at all) who have claimed master status. These compulsive liars are all about. We even had a thread on it here, called "Liars in the Martial Arts". I stupidly managed to get that thread locked down for my somewhat indelicate treatment of a certain individual on this forum...whom you know.

These frauds pose as martial artists, cops, and Spec Ops guys (or some other elite unit). They then try and impress others with tales of their accomplishments and adventures.

Some people build castles in the air, but these jokers MOVE INTO THEM.

While there is a certain tragedy to their miserable, made-up lives...the facade is so dishonorable that it drives the rest of us to distraction.

Welcome to the forum. Your arrival, for at least one person who posts here, must be like the fox entering the henhouse. Where that particular chicken is, I can not guess. He is currently a furtive fowl, or chicken incognito.

Let's see. There's coq au vin, chicken pot-au-feu, croque madame, chicken vesuvio, sweet stuffed capon.....

I can't WAIT to see what is for dinner.


Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Master Todd Miller

A person is say a yellow belt, then the next year they are a 7th or 8th degree black belt? Or a person claims rank that is totally false?

They're not just ripping people off, they're teaching them iffy skills that'll probably result in diasaster if they ever get into a situation where they'd need the art they're trying to study in all likelyhood.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

One more question?

I have this situation in case you did not guess

What is the best way to expose? As far as forum rules?

Thanks
Master
Todd Miller

 

[Robbo]

Anyone who calls himself a master or allows his students to refer to him as 'master' in his presence, isn't a master."
- Takamura Yukiyoshi (1928 - 2000)

I think that says it all.

Rob :asian: