Take the test is your school a mcdojo.

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Didn’t the US Supreme Court hear a case on this not to long ago and they deemed that Bowing is a simple form of respect, not worship, and there for did not force a religious practice on anyone? I remember because I read that someone was not allowed to compete unless they bowed, and they argued “religion”. Fought it all the way to the Supreme Court. Does anyone else remember this or heard about it?



Michael Tabone
 
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If you had experience living outside the community you reside in, you may find that you don't know all the things you think you do...
Click to expand...

And therein is the whole thing in a nutshell.
 
I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive, (see shinto relegion) in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them, Give them a spirital meaning. That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu.
 
Originally posted by Judo-kid
Ok smart guy, I only do judo (points to the name)
Judo was founded by Shintoist and Alot has to do with the shinto relegion, Even the trouphys are shinto Gates Come on now.
ROFL
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that Kano-sensei was a devout Shinto believer. Could you tell me where you obtained that information?

Also, if what you say is true, then how is it that such a religious person as your teacher managed to not only participate in, but stick with and excel in, such a heretical, blasphemous pastime? Shouldn't he have quit long ago...?

Back to the McDojo thing -

Hidden agendas to training (i.e. prolonging needed training time in order to ensure meal tickets).

"This is how the ancients trained" (though it wasn't how the instructor was trained).

Patches upon patches upon patches.

Encouraging students to donate money to the school/teacher, to emulate the teacher in thought, deed and appearance, to have contact only with other students.

These are a few of my particular favorite sign posts of a sure bet McDojo.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
that was my coach and judo took out the bowing to the mat. You only bow to the mat if you want to now.
 
how about the fact that it is somewhat submissive.
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Exactly, it is submissive in the sense that no ONE is better than another...in the sense that one comes to the dojo/dojang/kwoon with a humble attitude...one open to LEARNING.

...but, since your focus is being the baddest guy on the block (read...bully) ...you certainly wouldn't be interested in bowing...

Sorry, got on a soapbox...

Back to this thread within a thread...

You claim to be Christian...
Does not Christ turn the other cheek?
Does not Christ say that the way to heaven is by becoming as a child...innocent, curious, and NOT afraid to ask "Why?"
The very essence of humility is mirrored in the innocense of a child who WANTS to learn something...the child does NOT bring self importance to the table...does not bring "I know this" to the table...just "Why?"

:asian:
chufeng

Bowing is NOT submissive...it is an acknowledgement that you come to learn and respect what your teacher has to offer...

It is also a sign (like a handshake) to traet others within the group with courtersy and respect...
 
This thread is clearly a serious waste of beating one's head against a wall.

Martial Arts, include fencing, boxing, western wrestling, cane & baton, capoera, savate, krav maga, hisardut, systema, sambo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc. do not require a "bow", but touching gloves, shaking hands, etc. is a sign of respect for an opponent. I think it should be culture specific and if you chose to participate in the art, then retain the traditions, which are of value. Humility, respect, honor, etc.

The arguments seems specious and a waste of perfectly good time and intelligence. Let's agree that someone defending their instructor, and chosen style, will do so adamantly, and follow, as do many students, the lead of their instructor. Each student is a reflection of the teacher as a mirror held before us. Use the mirror to improve and change ... or not. Hopefully with time and seasoning, a little different perspective, then the student can appreciate some of the traditions and instructors that helped shape his art.

Was that general enough, or was I being too politically correct? OK what I really think is that some students tend to follow their instructors with almost a cult-like following. I did a research paper on this in graduate school a couple of decades ago, and the transference and desire to please the teacher almost overwhelmingly, are the student looking for approval from a father or older brother figure. Remember when you are part of a group sharing the same beliefs, it is difficult to see how any of you can be doing anything wrong. Specifically, thumbing your nose at your own line of descent, and seniors in the art before you.

I am letting this one go now, but it obviously pushed one of my buttons, as I watch instructors I respect, self-promote to Grandmaster and opt to change the course of their art, not withstanding that they may be excellent teachers and martial artists. Why seek approval, publicity, or controversy other than for your own ego?

This from an instructor who does not use contracts, and definitely has never been accused of running a McDojo.

NOTE: This was to have followed Hollywood's post > Obviously I was not the only one who felt like JudoKids' post reflected poorly on his art, himself, and his instructor.

-Michael Billings
 
If a performer on stage bows after a performance it is in gratitude. They are not going to hell. That is an old European custom to express gratitude to be in the audiences company. Handshakes are of European custom too. The man or men who started the custom were of a particular religion. If they did not go to my choice of places to worship, should I not shake their hand when competing at a sporting event? That is pretty paranoid and messed up. A bow is a courtesy from afar and a group sign of courtesy as a convenience. That's all. I see somebody making a poor attempt at trying to get attention by being contrary for no good reason. Definite control issues. This is related to why this person wants to learn how to fight. They are desperate for any control they can get, no matter how insignificant and ludicrous. They are compensating for their lack of control in another of their lifes major areas. Maybe in 10 or 20 years they will reflect and see this. One can hope anyway.

white belt
 
Please just make a new thread on bowing and leave this for the mcdojo awarness.
 
Originally posted by Judo-kid
I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive,
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Judo-kid, I try very hard to treat your comments with respect, but when you begin spouting such misinformed ka-ka, I have a tough time just keeping in the laughter... You miss the point entirely regarding the equality, though culturally specific, gestures of bowing and shaking hands.

in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them, Give them a spirital meaning.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should read a book about Shinto. At least then your comments, right or wrong, would be partially informed rather than off the cuff bleating by someone that doesn't know any better...

That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu.
Click to expand...

The "do" arts of Japan owe more to Zen Buddhism than they do anything else. Shinto has a very, very small part to play in Japanese thought. Saying that judo is somehow based on or influenced by Shinto is absurd. Get the hint, already...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
As one of my teachers from many eons past told me, "Only one who possesses real spiritual strength can be truly courteous."

One who is not willing to humble him or her self cannot learn much; will never develop very far.

Shinto? In the practice of judo?

Nope.
 
the studio I used to be at used contracts. The studio that I'm currently training at is starting to use them.

I like them. When used correctly.


The way it worked at my old school:

You MUST sign a three month contract when you enter the school. You could sign up for longer if you wanted, but three months was minimum. This was for a couple of reasons:

1. My instructor gave everyone a uniform, a good, heavyweight one, and wanted to make sure he got his money back.

2. If you're going to train in kenpo for less than three months, you're wasting your time and your instructor's time.

3. A three month commitment gives people time to truly evaluate the program. i've seen a lot of people come to their first class, and hate it. They hate it because they're out of shape, find it difficult, and have a little trouble adjusting. If these people weren't on contract, they'd walk out. However, they figure, they've paid for three months, might as well get their money's worth. After about two months, they're in better shape, their blocks and kicks are starting to look good, and they've usually gotten their yellow. They almost always keep coming back.

After the three month contract expired, people could either sign a new 3, 6, or 12 month contract and pay up front in one lump sum (if you broke it down, 12 months was cheaper per month than 6, which was cheaper per month than 3, so if you knew you were going to stay for a while, it was an advantage of a few hundred bucks to sign a 12 month contract) or they could pay month to month, which was a little more expensive.

There's nothing wrong with giving your students a bit of a financial break if they're giving you a commitment of several months or more. There is something wrong with DEMANDING that they commit to a contract of several months or more.

Those that were on a month to month payment were still on a contract. The contract simply listed all the fees for the various contracts, and then made a statement such as "if the student chooses not to enroll in a 3, 6, or 12 month program, the student is considered to be on an "at will" contract that can be terminated at the end of any month by either the instructor or the student. The student must pay ($$) on the first of each month to renew this contract." or something similar.
 
Chufeng you call me a bully when i try to avoid fights with untrained fighters unless i really must.
*just because my beliefs are so diffrent then yours theres no point for taking low blows.*:shrug:

Next off I am a MMA artist and maybe thats why some of my beliefs on fighting are so diffrent from TMAs sort of beliefs.

A sort time agreement or contract isnt bad but when you reach the 1 years and plus those are what we can say mcdojoish.

I have to get those papers on the computer.
To much for me to type at once.

Superdave that looks like a scam to me.
 
JK,

I like to be the tuffist guy on the block (we all do)
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You wrote this on another thread...
But, you not only want to be the toughest guy, you want to prove it...
I combined that with the disrespectful way you communicate with others on this forum...and I came up with bully...


Chufeng you call me a bully when i try to avoid fights with untrained fighters unless i really must.
Click to expand...

...and when would it be necessary to fight with untrained fighters?...

Maybe I'm wrong for calling you a bully...maybe not...we've only got what we read on the screen to judge by...
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though...I'm sorry I implied you were a bully...

:asian:
chufeng
 
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