Taekwondo Master too harsh for my almost 5 year old?

Calliegirl

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Hi, there!

Okay, so my husband and I have always wanted both of our children to take Taekwondo. We thought we "shopped" around well and decided on a place. Our Grandmaster is full Korean (trained in Korea) and has a good resume (8th or 9th degree blackbelt?), served in Korean military, etc.

I definitely don't want to paint a false picture of him becasue he is very nice to the children. Hugs them, gives them high fives, etc. HOWEVER, he does have a stick (forget the Korean name) that he carries around. In the beginning, I barey noticed it. Now, it seems he uses it more and more. I am 100% confident he would NEVER hurt a child. He can be waving it and, then, hug a child the next minute. However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2). More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right. It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention. I see my son's eyes get bugged out and he is afaid of it. We don't do any kind of spanking or corporal punishment so this is pretty new to him. In the car the other day, he told me that "if Master ever slaps him again, he will want to walk out and never take TKD again". This alarms me. First of all, whether true or not, his 4 year old perception is that he slaps him. Second, he is learning you get your way through intimidation. Third, I don't want him to want to quit TKD.

Talking to more parents, I hear this is common. The other parents don't seem to mind "since it doesn't hurt" them. I am worried about the principle. Another parent told me her son was taking a stick to their younger brother and asking if he wanted to get smacked like the master said.

I don't want to be the weanie parent. I would not be complaining if he "hit" while they were sparring as in that case, you are "fighting" with protective gear, but this is not the case. It is a tool he is using to teach. I am going to try to talk to him, but there is a definite communication barrier. If he does agree to stop waving it in front of my son, I then have to decide if that is good enough - still see it happening with others.

What do you guys think? okay?

There is one other school I can try that does not do this, but the times are more inconvenient, the master's resume is not as great, but I am willing to switch if need be. I just want a reality check from others. My son does want to switch.

Thanks, in advance!
 

dancingalone

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This would not bother me, but I am an Asian American and my father was similarly 'strict' with me. When he corrected me for behavior or while he was giving me instruction in something, he was very matter-of-fact and business-like, and I am sure he could seem abrupt to others.

But really I don't think the issue is whether you need a reality check or not. You clearly are not comfortable at all with how he uses a stick, and I would think this is only the tip of the iceberg with the conflict you would find with how the school master operates. Atmosphere, culture, and personal relationships are important in martial arts between student and teacher, between parents and school. Just as it would be difficult for the teacher to change, so too would it be hard for you to change what your gut reaction to events are.

So maybe you can talk to him, but it might also be a good idea for you to consider whether the school fits your family... and vice versa?
 

jks9199

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Before I get into anything else, it seems like you're assessing a lot on their "resumes" without a lot of knowledge. I may be wrong -- but unless you have the background, you can't assess their resume. If my bosses came to me tomorrow and said "Jim, you're going to hire the next Street Maintenance Supervisor", I'd call them idiots. Because I know just enough about that stuff to be dangerous... I lack the knowledge to assess a resume. Belt ranks alone are almost meaningless. I've been training around 25 years, maybe a bit longer. I'm currently a 3rd level black belt. I'm sure there are people on this board who haven't trained a decade, and are 3rd degree. There's lots that goes into that; I haven't tested for more than a decade, by choice. Same thing with nationality, with military background, and so on...

Which segues me to the real issue. Are you comfortable with the environment and staff where your children are training? Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me. And with kids in the 5 to 10 year old range -- that's the most important thing. If the guy was a soccer coach who beaned the kids with a soccer ball if their attention seemed to be wandering or a baseball coach who hits the kid whose attention wanders in the outfield with a bat -- would you even hesitate to call him on it? I'm not impressed with this, though I reserve a good deal of judgment since I don't actually know whether we're talking a light touch or a swat.

In the end, the thing that matters is whether or not your kids have fun and whether or not your kids are enjoying it, and whether you are comfortable with the training they receive.
 
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Kong Soo Do

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My suggestion is to trust your first instinct. If you're uncomfortable, there is an issue. More to the point, your child is uncomfortable and that is a serious issue. I have no problem with spankings and such. Got a few growing up myself. But the issue here that it is the parents job, not the instructor. Too be honest, if someone hit my son it would become a very bad day for them. Too be brutally honest, he'd find himself on the ground with an impending trip to jail. I've trained children who were basically delinquents trying to get their act together. So the attention span and discipline wasn't always spectacular. But I used command presence, not a stick to keep their attention and focus. If this 'master' needs a stick, he's not a very good instructor. Particularly with children.

As mentioned above, his belt rank doesn't mean a whole lot. Without opening up a can of worms, belts can be bought in some circles and doesn't have a thing to do with actual experience.

I know that some may consider this a 'cultural thing', well beating your wife in the middle east is a cultural thing but it isn't right or acceptable.
 

Kong Soo Do

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One other question; does he use this stick with adults or just little kids?
 
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Calliegirl

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To answer questions...I haven't seen him train adults, but he does use it with older/teenage children. My son is not unruly at all...my play in line a bit (like a small kid will do).

Another thing...with the soccer example, you are right. I would pull him in a second. However, I didn't know of this is something used in TKD as a mental thing (?) since I did ask another friend of mine who said their master in another state did a similiar thing.

I really appreciate all of your thoughts, thanks!
 

oftheherd1

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I was never against corporal punishment with my daughters. However, I always thought it was my job to do. I would not have likely looked with favor on anyone else who did so. More importantly, since your son isn't used to it, whether or not I think corporal punishment would be good for your son is not up for grabs. That is for you to decide. I don't expect his teacher to be likely to change. Like it or not, it seems to be his way. If you can't get you son to accept that, I would probably move him. Just be careful he doesn't learn a way to control you and your husband. Little kids don't make such decisions, parents do. So if you want to change, be sure your son realizes it is your decision.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Paying money to be hit by a stick is bizarre. When is it the student's turn to hit the Master?? Equally odd to me is hugging kids. As a man, that is the last thing I would do, for legal reasons.
 
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jks9199

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Paying money to be hit by a stick is bizarre. When is it the student's turn to hit the Master?? Equally odd to me is hugging kids. As a man, that is the last thing I would do, for legal reasons.

There's that, too... Though there's room for it in appropriate manners and circumstances. Things have gotten to insane places of late, where school teachers have to bend themselves into pretzels trying to show a student the error on their paper to avoid any incidental contact, rather than simply lean over the students shoulder.

Again, I'm not condemning the instructor. I personally tended to balance a recognition of the limits of a kid's attention span and the use of exercise to maintain focus... but the stick might work. And a lot depends on if it's a touch or a light hit or laying the kid out...

I'll repeat myself: In the end, if it's causing you concern as a parent, you need to decide what you want to do about it. You might discuss it with the instructor -- or you might change schools.
 

Carol

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I do not think you are being a weenie parent at all. I think you are being carefully observant and wise.

This is A LOT of touching of a 4 year old boy that is downright inappropriate in my mind.

This stick does not sound like a teaching tool...this sounds like utter laziness. The instructor is whacking kids as a shortcut to proper class communication. I personally train in a stickfighting art...even in that environment I have never had an instructor whack an adult or a child for disciplinary reasons or simply to get their attention.

He is 4. Martial arts should be fun. He has the chance to interact with other kids his age, to get some exercise, and learn age-appropriate lessons about respect, protocol, discipline and structure....but it should still be simple and fun. He should NOT be in fear of getting hit with a weapon. And IMO he should be with a teacher that knows how to keep their hands to themselves. If it were me? I'd get him out pronto.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I can see using a stick during class the same way a school teacher might use it by tapping it on the black board to get your attention. A martial arts teacher could tap it on the ground, or in his hand or on his own leg so the sound gets the attention. Not as an intimidation tool, but as a sound that calls you to attention. A 4yr old doesn't need to be intimidated to gain focus. As stated above, he's either a lazy instructor, a poor instructor or both. I think you're rightly concerned and this is an issue.
 

dancingalone

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As stated above, he's either a lazy instructor, a poor instructor or both.

Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time. No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally. The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.
 

Carol

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Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time. No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally. The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.

I can appreciate a different culture, and different ways...even ways I don't personally agree with. Consistency breeds credibility. What threw the big red flag for me was OP not noticing the stick hardly at all early on and then the instructor using it more and more. That to my eyes looks more like a crutch than a different way of doing things.

I could be completely wrong. I hope I am.
 

dancingalone

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I can appreciate a different culture, and different ways...even ways I don't personally agree with. Consistency breeds credibility. What threw the big red flag for me was OP not noticing the stick hardly at all early on and then the instructor using it more and more. That to my eyes looks more like a crutch than a different way of doing things.

I could be completely wrong. I hope I am.

Of course it's a crutch, perhaps one needed because of a language barrier. But a crutch is also a tool. Useful in some situations, not so useful in others. In this case, it's a tool this particular teacher has chosen to employ, and I believe if he is an older man who spent the bulk of his life in Asia, his teaching and learning experiences will be very different from what we expect today in the USA.

Whether than is good or not depends on the individual student. It is fine to not fit the norms of his current location so long as he does not break any laws, and the success of his teaching method will be borne out in whether he can keep his doors open and whether he produces quality students.

It does sound however like the OP might be better served with another school though.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time. No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally. The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.

With respect, I stand by my comments based upon the available information provided. Children, particularly pre-K do not need to feel intimidated or threatened. It is a bad way to teach regardless of culture. You're not training a hardened warrior at age 4, your teaching a kid that isn't even in kindergarten yet. They need patient guidance and to be led by example. Using a stick to gain attention and/or compliance sends entirely the wrong message.
 

Gorilla

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Some of this is culture. Having said that if it makes you uncomfortable then have a talk with the instructor. I have seen this done but was comfortable with the situation. If it went in a bad way I was there to handle the situation.

This is not uncommon for the old school Korean Masters. Which is the type of school we started in!
 

Ironcrane

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I personally started my training under the 'stick whacking method', and it was how my teacher was trained himself. I was never hit very hard, and it never caused any problems, or ever became an issue. So to me this sounds like this isn't the right school for your son.
 
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Calliegirl

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Thank you, everyone! To clairify, yes, it is indeed his culture. Very nice man and good intentions, but I was told he was raised and learned Taekwondo with this stick. He calls it "chocolate" like his mom did and asks the kids "Do you want some chocolate"??. Again, the whacks do not hurt, but are totally meant to intimidate. I am embarassed to even write this as I am thinking "How did I ever justify this"? However, it seems to have ramped up. Today, they were running in a big circle to warm up. I was watching from my car (have a two year old) and could see my son grinning as he loves to run. Then, saw the master in the middle waving his stick and learning forward to "tap" a few. I was thinking how I would be scared in that environment. Again, he does not hurt, but it is a threat that would be scary to a little kid.

I am going off my insticts and pulling him. I just wanted to run this by some people who knew more about martial arts environments then me. In addition, I am pretty loyal and do like this master....just not the best fit for teaching my son. We just went to talk to another Takewondo place and feel it is a much better fit for us. I am very excited happy to change. My son's face lit up and he said he wanted to go there. So glad he does not want to quit, but just wants a change in environment. Thanks, again.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Calliegirl,

Firstly, I'll say that the most important thing is that everyone is comfortable with the school, the teacher, the other students, and so on, both yourself as a parent, and your child as the student there. And in that regard, I wholeheartedly agree that, if you're not comfortable with the way the classes are run, or if your son is expressing concern about the "stick", then definitely pull him out of there.

That said, I'm going to go back to your OP and see if we can get to how you've ended up in this predicament. Small warning, I'm not necessarily going to hold much back here.

Hi, there!

Hi!

Okay, so my husband and I have always wanted both of our children to take Taekwondo.

Why? Have either of you got any experience in TKD, or any martial art? Why TKD? What do you think the benefits would be, that you're looking for for your kids?

We thought we "shopped" around well and decided on a place.

Again, I'd ask what experience you or your husband might have to do much "shopping around", at least in an informed way. Please note that I'm not saying you aren't able, I'm just trying to get some perspective of where you were coming from in this case.

Our Grandmaster is full Korean (trained in Korea) and has a good resume (8th or 9th degree blackbelt?), served in Korean military, etc.

Yeah, this is what I was talking about. He's full Korean... and? Does that make him a great teacher? Does that mean he understands teaching kids? Does that mean anything along those lines? He's an 8th or 9th Dan... so he's been around in the art a long time. Which means he is decades removed from being in a class with kids, in all probability, especially if the majority of his training was in Korea. And he was in the Korean military? What does that mean? What I mean by that is, why would that be important, or even desired? After all, you're questioning disciplinary methods as employed by a teacher who learnt the art in a highly disciplinary environment and culture (in terms of the art), has dedicated his life to such an approach, and comes from a highly disciplinary (military) background... are you really surprised that such approaches are employed by him? These are the hallmarks I'd be looking for is disciplinary methods were desired as part of the class, really.

I definitely don't want to paint a false picture of him becasue he is very nice to the children. Hugs them, gives them high fives, etc. HOWEVER, he does have a stick (forget the Korean name) that he carries around. In the beginning, I barey noticed it. Now, it seems he uses it more and more. I am 100% confident he would NEVER hurt a child. He can be waving it and, then, hug a child the next minute. However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2).

Again, I'd ask what you wanted your son to get out of martial art classes, especially at that young age. From the way you're describing this, there's no physical abuse taking place, but the teacher is taking his role of teaching the art seriously, and is doing what he feels is necessary for the kids to learn it properly. I'd personally argue that it's not that important at their age, but I've certainly seen such approaches to teaching kids. Really, it's a form of "tough love", if you will... a mixture of carrot and stick. And if you've sent your son into a martial art class to help with his discipline (not saying that's the case here, but it is a common reason that parents send their kids to classes), why would you be upset that that's what he's enforcing?

More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right.

Hmm, there's quite a difference between a "whack" and a "pat"... can you be any more precise? Is he just tapping them to indicate which part of their body is in the wrong position, or is it more solid (but still gentle) to any available area for them to pay attention to him (possibly due to language barriers or issues with communication)?

It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention.

So they pay attention to the instructor? Isn't that what you want, though?

I see my son's eyes get bugged out and he is afaid of it.

This is the first indication that there is a reason to take him out, really. So far it's been your perspective of something that you're an outsider to.

We don't do any kind of spanking or corporal punishment so this is pretty new to him. In the car the other day, he told me that "if Master ever slaps him again, he will want to walk out and never take TKD again". This alarms me.

Look, without getting into the whole pro-con argument of corporal punishment, I would point out that the lack of such forms of enforcing discipline in the home can only amplify the issues if it is encountered outside the family (in this case, in a martial art class). I don't think the idea of avoiding corporal punishment serves to protect the child at all, as it really leaves them unable to handle situations where some form of physical enforcement of behaviour is employed. I might suggest that, despite your desires for him, due to the lack of preparation from his homelife, TKD (or any martial art, really) might not be right for him at this age.

First of all, whether true or not, his 4 year old perception is that he slaps him.

Firstly, I'd talk to the young lad and clarify what he means when he says "slap".

Second, he is learning you get your way through intimidation.

Secondly, I don't know that that's what he's learning. Has he indicated in any way that that's been the lesson? Has he started trying to intimidate others in order to get his way? The actual lesson is more one of listening to authority figures... in other words, it's a disciplinary approach.

Third, I don't want him to want to quit TKD.

But what does he want? Did he want to start TKD in the first place? If a disciplined environment isn't the right thing for him right now, how about you find out what he wants... he might go back to it later on. He's a child, not even at school age yet. Time really is on his side. Pressuring him to continue won't really give much in the way of benefits.

Talking to more parents, I hear this is common. The other parents don't seem to mind "since it doesn't hurt" them. I am worried about the principle.

What principle? One that you're reading into it? One that is actually present? One that doesn't fit with your ideals on teaching children, but might fit better with other parents, especially where something like a martial art, trained for disciplinary reasons, is concerned?

Another parent told me her son was taking a stick to their younger brother and asking if he wanted to get smacked like the master said.

Then that kid needs to be pulled aside and have the difference explained. I'd bring the instructor into the conversation, to ensure the same message is being sent both at home and at the school, but in essence, I'd be putting a lot of that on a lack of boundaries enforced by the parents.

I don't want to be the weanie parent. I would not be complaining if he "hit" while they were sparring as in that case, you are "fighting" with protective gear, but this is not the case.

Really? I'm pretty sure that if the 8th or 9th Dan instructor was sparring with the 4 year olds, and started hitting them seriously, you'd have an issue with that... Really, it all comes down to context; what is the context of the "hitting"? Why is it employed?

It is a tool he is using to teach. I am going to try to talk to him, but there is a definite communication barrier.

Yes, it is just a tool he is using to teach. Why he is using that tool, and how he is using it, comes down to him, and you can only get that information from talking to him. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to stop for you, though. He might explain why his classes are run the way they are, what his values are that he is trying to instill in the kids, and how he does that with the methods he uses, but honestly, if you don't like it, you're free to remove your child.
If he does agree to stop waving it in front of my son, I then have to decide if that is good enough - still see it happening with others.

Here's the thing. There's a large degree of "consumer mentality" out there, and it's rather a negative influence on martial arts. There's the expectation that, as the paying parent/student, you get to dictate what happens in the class. Sorry, no. Not in the slightest. By paying, you are paying for a particular service that that instructor is providing... you're not paying to tell them how to do what they're doing. When you go to a movie theatre, you pay to see a particular movie. You might like it, you might not, you could even walk out of it, but you can't re-direct it, re-cast it, re-write it, or anything else. Martial art classes are very much like that. You're paying for this instructor to teach your child TKD based on their credentials and success, as well as the perceived benefits of the class/art itself. If you're happy with how things are presented, you pay for the class, and get the most out of it. If you're not, you don't dictate changes in the class, you stop paying and stop attending.

I'll put it this way: I teach Ninjutsu. There is a large weaponry component to our art, with some of the more commonly presented weapons (in my school) being knife and hanbo (a three foot stick, which realistically is used dominantly to break an opponents bones... as a result, the teaching is geared around generating bone breaking power and targeting). Additionally, there are a large range of subjects and methods which require a more mature mindset, and as a result, I only teach adults. I will have parents call up fairly regularly to ask about their children joining, though, mainly due to popular media using the "ninja" image in cartoons, movies, etc. I point out to these parents that I only teach adults... I will make exceptions for students as young as 16, provided they can demonstrate the required maturity, but I'm not about to accept a 10 year old, as I don't feel right giving them skills in using a knife combatively, or how to break other peoples bones with a stick, then sending them out onto a schoolyard. In a number of cases, the parents have asked if I could just teach their child "the other parts" instead... or if I could "not teach those weapons" when their kid is in the class. Uh... nope. The class is what it is. I'm not about to change the entire class for a single student.

What do you guys think? okay?

I think there isn't enough information to be completely sure one way or the other, but hopefully the above will give you some idea of an alternate understanding.

There is one other school I can try that does not do this, but the times are more inconvenient, the master's resume is not as great, but I am willing to switch if need be. I just want a reality check from others. My son does want to switch.

Forget the "resume". The only thing that's important is that your son is happy and comfortable in the class. If you're so insistent on him taking TKD, do what you can to support him... but be clear on what you're after (for him) out of the training. It might just be that such aspects actually give the benefits you want.

Thanks, in advance!

Not a problem. Hopefully this will give you a bit more food for thought. But sit down with your son, ask what he feels, and what he wants. That should be your main criteria as to where he goes.
 

Markku P

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With respect, I stand by my comments based upon the available information provided. Children, particularly pre-K do not need to feel intimidated or threatened. It is a bad way to teach regardless of culture. You're not training a hardened warrior at age 4, your teaching a kid that isn't even in kindergarten yet. They need patient guidance and to be led by example. Using a stick to gain attention and/or compliance sends entirely the wrong message.

I agree with this. I personally would not allow my kids to train there. Using the stick is a red flag in any circumstances.

/Markku P.
 

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