TaeKwonDo and hip surgery prevelance

[Flying Crane]

It is absolutely possible to reach reasonable conclusions on topics that have not been academically studied. Anecdote is not rigorous science, but is not automatically junk either. Looking at it within the greater context can lead to reasonable conclusions.

In this case, I think the reasonable assumption is that many years of training high kicks can lead to hip deterioration. It’s not guaranteed. And it may be one of multiple factors that contributes. The quality of instruction one received, the accuracy of one’s biomechanics, their consistency, their genetic predispositions, etc. can all contribute one way or the other. As well as other injuries or activities. But it is not a crazy position to take.

 

[Acronym]

Do you pivot the supporting foot and shifting the torso?

Yeah but unlike in the lead leg side kick I am moving my hip dynamically, instead of holding it up statically up and stretching out the leg as in a lead leg side kick. It would seem, assuming one is careful about heights, that a roundhouse kick is OK

 

[Acronym]

It is absolutely possible to reach reasonable conclusions on topics that have not been academically studied. Anecdote is not rigorous science, but is not automatically junk either. Looking at it within the greater context can lead to reasonable conclusions.

In this case, I think the reasonable assumption is that many years of training high kicks can lead to hip deterioration. It’s not guaranteed. And it may be one of multiple factors that contributes. The quality of instruction one received, the accuracy of one’s biomechanics, their consistency, their genetic predispositions, etc. can all contribute one way or the other. As well as other injuries or activities. But it is not a crazy position to take.

My own feeling is that it has to do genetically with how strong the ligaments are held together. I mostly feel rock solid in my knees and hips and this corresponds to not getting injured.

That said, I don’t fixate on head heights. I throw head kicks 5% of the time. Never side kick head heights either.

 

[Dirty Dog6]

How can I provide evidence of something that is not researched?

By doing research. Or, if that's too much trouble, by being upfront and clear about your statements being nothing more than unsupported opinion. I mean, you made the claim that 99.9% had surgery. And that's patently nonsense.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah but unlike in the lead leg side kick I am moving my hip dynamically, instead of holding it up statically up and stretching out the leg as in a lead leg side kick. It would seem, assuming one is careful about heights, that a roundhouse kick is OK

Im having difficulty envisioning this. Can you point to a video clip? And I don’t think you need to hold the hip and stretch it. If the leg and hip travel through that range, then youve got the sideways motion.

 

[Flying Crane]

My own feeling is that it has to do genetically with how strong the ligaments are held together. I mostly feel rock solid in my knees and hips and this corresponds to not getting injured.

That said, I don’t fixate on head heights. I throw head kicks 5% of the time. Never side kick head heights either.

Well, I think it can be like any repetitive motion injury. If you overdue it, you can damage the joint. Just exactly what it means to overdue it can be different from one person to another. And genetics may or may not have anything to do with it. You may be just fine. Or you may THINK you are fine and then find out you have a repetitive motion injury 20 years from now. We cannot predict it with certainty.

If the majority of your kicking is waist height and lower, especially with side kicks and hook kicks and (I still maintain) roundhouse kicks, then I suspect you may not have troubles. But it just depends on how things roll out for you.

You can also injure the knee if you snap out a front snap kick to strongly and to the very end of the knee’s range of movement. That can happen on one kick, or it can be gradual over time. I don’t think it means you should never do the kick. It means you need to take reasonable steps to protect yourself from injury when you train. Control the snap so it isn’t at absolute extreme range of movement. Hold a bit in reserve. Be aware of the risk.

The real conclusion is, training can lead to injury so take reasonable precautions. And then go train and don’t fixate on it.

 

[Acronym]

By doing research. Or, if that's too much trouble, by being upfront and clear about your statements being nothing more than unsupported opinion. I mean, you made the claim that 99.9% had surgery. And that's patently nonsense.

No. I wrote that 99.9% of the GMs I know about in my affiliation seems to have had surgery of some kind. I'm confident that a polling would show that at
least 75% have had surgery.

In my school, 2 out 4 who train 100% have undergone surgery, and one being only 17 years of age and is naturally flexible, world competitor.

All of this despite the special care given to stretching in Taekwondo.

 

[Acronym]

You can also injure the knee if you snap out a front snap kick to strongly and to the very end of the knee’s range of movement.

That's why one doesn't go 100% in the air

 

[Flying Crane]

That's why one doesn't go 100% in the air

Yup, but my point is, physical activity carries some risk of injury of a variety of types. So to draw some conclusion that engaging in TKD could lead to an injury requiring a hip replacement eventually, is reasonable. It is far from guaranteed and a variety of factors likely are part of the mix. But the conclusion that involvement in a physical activity like TKD could lead to some kind of injury is reasonable.

Is the frequency for specifically hip replacement more prevalent in TKD than other systems that also use kicks, like karate or capoeira? Well that kind of distinction probably does need some academic study before any conclusions can be made.

 

[Acronym]

Yup, but my point is, physical activity carries some risk of injury of a variety of types. So to draw some conclusion that engaging in TKD could lead to an injury requiring a hip replacement eventually, is reasonable. It is far from guaranteed and a variety of factors likely are part of the mix. But the conclusion that involvement in a physical activity like TKD could lead to some kind of injury is reasonable.

Is the frequency for specifically hip replacement more prevalent in TKD than other systems that also use kicks, like karate or capoeira? Well that kind of distinction probably does need some academic study before any conclusions can be made.

The fairest comparison would be Kyokushin. I have not heard of that art causing much kicking related surgeries at all. The famous Kyokushin guys like Andy Hug did not have surgeries that I know of. Maybe we can get some Kyokushin guy in here to let us know.

 

[Flying Crane]

The fairest comparison would be Kyokushin. I have not heard of that art causing much kicking related surgeries at all. The famous Kyokushin guys like Andy Hug did not have surgeries that I know of. Maybe we can get some Kyokushin guy in here to let us know.

Well, anecdotal comparisons won’t mean much. If you want to compare this in a meaningful way will require some academic approach to a systematic study. But I am sure you can find some kyokushin folks who have had hip replacements if you look long enough. Martial arts can lead to such injuries. I have no doubts.

 

[Acronym]

Well, anecdotal comparisons won’t mean much. If you want to compare this in a meaningful way will require some academic approach to a systematic study. But I am sure you can find some kyokushin folks who have had hip replacements if you look long enough. Martial arts can lead to such injuries. I have no doubts.

It would depend on the trend. If a sample is small but with extreme differences, it's probably a signficant result. So if 10 out of 10 guys get poisened by something, it's probably poisoned. And that's exactly what I experience in my TKD club.

If Kyokushin guys would struggle to even give anecdotes, this would be indicative in and of itself

 

[Flying Crane]

It would depend on the trend. If a sample is small but with extreme differences, it's probably a signficant result. So if 10 out of 10 guys get poisened by something, it's probably poisoned. And that's exactly what I experience in my TKD club.

If Kyokushin guys would struggle to even give anecdotes, this would be indicative in and of itself

Maybe, maybe not. If they are all from the same school and nobody has had the hip replacement, maybe none of them have been doing it long enough to experience the injury yet. These things tend to be gradual over time.

 

[Acronym]

Maybe, maybe not. If they are all from the same school and nobody has had the hip replacement, maybe none of them have been doing it long enough to experience the injury yet. These things tend to be gradual over time.

That's why I mentioned world champions and K1 legends. It isn't my perception that they get anywhere near the same kicking related injuries and they actually go FC. It's bloody dreadful reading a TKD interview with a long-time practitioner.

Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's why I mentioned world champions and K1 legends. It isn't my perception that they get anywhere near the same kicking related injuries and they actually go FC. It's bloody dreadful reading a TKD interview with a long-time practitioner.

Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.

To be clear, I’m not disputing your points. I’m just saying that making a meaningful comparison between systems might require a more rigorous examination. But your observations in the meantime are real.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.

A professional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years of his life time in the ring.

If you have abused your body in your young age, you will pay your price when you get old.

 

[Acronym]

A professional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years of his life time in the ring.

If you have abused your body in your young age, you will pay your price when you get old.

That was not related to this discussion and it's clearly false. They start fighting since they were kids and thus fight for a much longer than time than your average athletes career.

 

[dvcochran]

What is the consensus on stretching. take days off completely or always do a little every day

I found this post in between all the bashing about anecdotal evidence, which I feel you got piled on a bit about.
To answer your question, for the average person daily stretching is best and a linear approach works fine. For competition and more intense training I like cycling and long on/short off cycles.

 

[Earl Weiss104]

What do you think about the fact that we elongate the hips with our body mechanics unlike Karatekas who tend to crunch and contract? Does it matter which way you do it for long-term health? I've heard that an entire class in Shotokan got injured from side kick lessons because they force the students this forward crunch.

See here for reference. No TKD style executes side kicks like this.

:

I don't think the methodology matters as much, but I have no studies to back me up. Instead I think it is like many issues athletes face. Stress on joints due to impact, and repetition. Individual differences abound.

 

[Earl Weiss104]

It's equally simple to round up 5 names who didn't.
Me. GM Valdez. GM Kim. GM Castor. GM Lee. etc etc.

As we know there are 3 "races" among humans(some studies now suggest a 4th. ) "Caucasoid race", "Negroid race", and "Mongoloid race". I read a study once of how the joint size in the Mongoloid race is proportionally larger than other races making them better able to withstand stress on the joints. Never checked to see if there are any statistics on joint replacement that may support this.