tae-kwon-do vs wing chun in non-sport combat?

[Danny T]

Personally, I'd also disagree with Mephisto's earlier statement, "Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal." But then he went on to make some excellent points.

In a subsequent post he stated, "the collective fighting experience of wc and boxers is not equal because there are many more boxers that compete. IMO wc would benefit from competition and a rule set that favors the wc fighter. With enough wc exclusive fighting we may see the development of fighters who can branch out to other martial sports, a side effect of the development of wc as a sport is that non competitive wc enthusiasts can benefit from the knowledge of the fighters."

I'll be 60 this coming summer so I'm getting past the age where I personally can spar hard (including grappling) without constantly sustaining injuries, but I do believe that having more sparring and competition in general could benefit WC. Not only would it raise the standard of those of us who practice WC, it would also attract more athletic and competitive individuals to the art.

The number reason, in my opinion, that many wc people are not doing any real resistance training. Forms and pre set drills are good for learning to a point. There are a lot of Great WC Drillers out there. I have my WCers doing a lot of freestyle pad work with the pad holder punching and kicking the puncher. Then we Spar, Spar, Spar. Against WCers, against our Muay Thai guys, against our CSW guys. My sifu who trained under Jiu Wan in Hong Kong fought, a lot. And he had us spar, a lot.

A lot of karate programs with point fighting only training and competition have the same problem vs boxers, muay thai, or whatever. It is about the training, the practice, the pressure testing against someone who is not being compliant to you.
And guess what, you will get hit, you will get kicked, but you will become a much better wc practitioner for it.

 

[Mephisto]

Personally, I'd also disagree with Mephisto's earlier statement, "Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal." But then he went on to make some excellent points.

In a subsequent post he stated, "the collective fighting experience of wc and boxers is not equal because there are many more boxers that compete. IMO wc would benefit from competition and a rule set that favors the wc fighter. With enough wc exclusive fighting we may see the development of fighters who can branch out to other martial sports, a side effect of the development of wc as a sport is that non competitive wc enthusiasts can benefit from the knowledge of the fighters."

I'll be 60 this coming summer so I'm getting past the age where I personally can spar hard (including grappling) without constantly sustaining injuries, but I do believe that having more sparring and competition in general could benefit WC. Not only would it raise the standard of those of us who practice WC, it would also attract more athletic and competitive individuals to the art.

I'm glad you can see what I'm getting at even if you don't 100% with my viewpoint. I'm not trying to troll and I really am open minded. I've just put a lot of thought and consideration into my stance on martial arts. I'm sure there are exceptional wc fighters out there, it seems quite a few wc guys I meet agree that there are a lot of wc guys that don't spar or apply the forms and drills to a resisting opponent. I've run into some wc guys here who don't seem to appreciate the value of sparring and resistance training. In the minds of some people sparring has no value in the street, this is the mentality that cripples some potentially great fighting systems. Not everyone in a system has to fight but the system should have a solid core of fighters to set a precedent and share experience.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have a friend who's a really good purple belt in BJJ. He medals in comps regularly and taps me out with the quickness if we roll pure grappling. If we introduce striking on the ground (even really light slaps) though he can't cope at all. All his fancy guard variations go out the window and he starts flapping his arms around like he's being attacked by a swarm of bees.

The sad thing about this is that it isn't that hard to master the fundamentals of punch defense and combative application on the ground. If your friend spent even 1/10th of the time practicing those as he does his tournament moves, he'd be fine against anyone but a skilled ground-n-pounder.

it's important to be objective about what and how we train, so that we can identify our weaknesses and look to rectify them.

Exactly. Too many people get their egos tied up in defending their training choices by pointing out everything they see as a weakness in other styles. If they spent that same energy addressing the weaknesses that others can see in them, they'd be a lot better off.

 

[Reeksta]

The sad thing about this is that it isn't that hard to master the fundamentals of punch defense and combative application on the ground. If your friend spent even 1/10th of the time practicing those as he does his tournament moves, he'd be fine against anyone but a skilled ground-n-pounder.

Your statement is absolutely spot-on but, simply to assuage my own guilt at possibly misrepresenting him, I feel I should point out that this lad is very open about the fact that BJJ is just a fun hobby for him. He doesn't equate it to self defence and is the last person who'd paint himself as any sort of badass. You're right though, if he devoted even a little time to the more martial aspects of the art he definitely could be because the kid is incredibly talented

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Your statement is absolutely spot-on but, simply to assuage my own guilt at possibly misrepresenting him, I feel I should point out that this lad is very open about the fact that BJJ is just a fun hobby for him. He doesn't equate it to self defence and is the last person who'd paint himself as any sort of badass. You're right though, if he devoted even a little time to the more martial aspects of the art he definitely could be because the kid is incredibly talented

Yeah, if someone only wants to do BJJ as a sport and doesn't care about the combative aspects, then that's their right. I just figured that if he was willing to play around with you striking that he must have at least a little interest in the martial side of the art.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Tae-Kwon-Do and Wing Chun seem to be the two very popular boards on MT, and I guess they are two of the most popular martial art styles too. They are so different:

Tae-Kwon-Do is a Korean martial art. It focuses on kicks and flexibility.
Wing Chun is a Chinese martial art. It focuses on hand techniques.

I know Tae-Kwon-Do is a competition in the Olympics. But which do you think is better for non-sport combat? I would say Wing Chun.

Tae-Kwon-Do is primarily a sport art. Most clubs within this art do not allow contact. They are designed to get points and position. That is not to say some techniques are very effective/powerful in real combat situations. Yet, where TKD falls down a bit is distancing. Fights rarely allow space. The fight involves clinchwork, close quarter striking and heavy contact. Wing chun specialises in this area and therefore is more likely to pull off a victory, but it really always comes down to the practitioner over style

 

[Drose427]

Just for the record...
Both of those were crappy kicks.
The roundhouse was delivered to the hip, which is a rotten target, and the position of the hips upon impact ensures that it was a no-power strike.
The spinning kick was half hook kick and half back kick. He did manage to land it on a good target, so it worked, but had it been done properly the other kid would likely have been completely out, not just squatting and saying "that's it, no more".

Zero Penetration whatsoever

 

[Drose427]

Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal. It's difficult to find video of two wc guys sparring with a significant degree of resistance. Often when they do it looks less like wc and more like sloppy boxing. Not to mention i think that if wc offered a solid striking foundation we'd see wc practitioners in MMA. I'm not saying there's no good wc anywhere I'm just saying that comparing the average student a boxer will be better prepared for a fight. We are starting to see some examples of wc in MMA but it also seems pretty modified, but I'd like to see more in the future. Wc sounds good in theory, it's a simple direct approach. We just need the wc fighters to get more interested in applying their craft to fighting.

The "we'd see it in MMA" argument is crap. People say that about TKD, but its everywhere in MMA. Silva, Henderson, Pettis, all use TKD Tech kicks. Fights have been won with Cresecnt Kicks. Not to mention, for like 10 years now people who only want to step in the cage will tend to only learn bare bones because its faster. Thats why there so much brawling and so little technique. So many fighters only having kickboxing and some BJJ or wrestling. Simplest isnt always better. Many times fighters will have openings for an omoplata on the mat because they cant get the armbar, or could easily mix a high kick to the head on an opponent who drops his guard or start to close his eyes when a flurry of punches come. But they dont, because theyve limited theyre background. Obviously this isnt standard, but it happens in MMA gyms all the time. That doesnt make Style X ineffective. MMA fighters dont just decide to take a TMA for the cage, theyre existing TMA's who want to get in the cage.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tae-Kwon-Do is primarily a sport art.

Completely incorrect. Taekwondo Is a Martial Art. There are SOME schools that are primarily focused on Olympic-style sparring. Taekwondo, however, is not.

Most clubs within this art do not allow contact.

Completely incorrect. I have never personally been in a dojang that didn't spar with contact. Some (ITF) encourage a lower level of contact, but contact is nonetheless required. And at high levels of ITF competition, the contact is definitely higher. Most spar with a fairly high level of contact. Those sport oriented schools that you seem to think are indicative of the entire art spar full contact. A knockout is a win.
I have no doubt that there are some schools that spar no contact. But they are very much a minority.

They are designed to get points and position.

Completely incorrect. You're really on a roll here.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never been kicked by a good TKD practitioner.

 

[drop bear]

The "we'd see it in MMA" argument is crap. People say that about TKD, but its everywhere in MMA. Silva, Henderson, Pettis, all use TKD Tech kicks. Fights have been won with Cresecnt Kicks. Not to mention, for like 10 years now people who only want to step in the cage will tend to only learn bare bones because its faster. Thats why there so much brawling and so little technique. So many fighters only having kickboxing and some BJJ or wrestling. Simplest isnt always better. Many times fighters will have openings for an omoplata on the mat because they cant get the armbar, or could easily mix a high kick to the head on an opponent who drops his guard or start to close his eyes when a flurry of punches come. But they dont, because theyve limited theyre background. Obviously this isnt standard, but it happens in MMA gyms all the time. That doesnt make Style X ineffective. MMA fighters dont just decide to take a TMA for the cage, theyre existing TMA's who want to get in the cage.

That logic isn't really sound. MMA is pretty heavy on technique. There are high level tkders who do it and there is no shortage of head kicks.

 

[Drose427]

That logic isn't really sound. MMA is pretty heavy on technique. There are high level tkders who do it and there is no shortage of head kicks.

Theres a lot of brawling in the UFC of late, the technique happens on the mat. Also, theres definitely a lack of head kicks, of kicks in general. The only real kicking I've seen for a while is from people from kicking backgrounds (henderson, cerrone, etc.) who trained there before fighting in the UFC. There might be one or two leg kicks here or there, but that tends to be it. When it comes to striking, brawling is taking over the UFC. The high level TKD guys, were already high level TKD guys before their MMA training. They didnt Train in MMA then decide to do TKD. I've never heard of that, it's always the opposite. They may train with people from other arts for input, but they arent training in that art. As more and more people who want to get in the train only pick up Kickboxing/BJJ or wrestling, the diversity dies and fighters become more limited.

 

[Mephisto]

The "we'd see it in MMA" argument is crap. People say that about TKD, but its everywhere in MMA. Silva, Henderson, Pettis, all use TKD Tech kicks. Fights have been won with Cresecnt Kicks. Not to mention, for like 10 years now people who only want to step in the cage will tend to only learn bare bones because its faster. Thats why there so much brawling and so little technique. So many fighters only having kickboxing and some BJJ or wrestling. Simplest isnt always better. Many times fighters will have openings for an omoplata on the mat because they cant get the armbar, or could easily mix a high kick to the head on an opponent who drops his guard or start to close his eyes when a flurry of punches come. But they dont, because theyve limited theyre background. Obviously this isnt standard, but it happens in MMA gyms all the time. That doesnt make Style X ineffective. MMA fighters dont just decide to take a TMA for the cage, theyre existing TMA's who want to get in the cage.

I don't know who says we don't see tkd in MMA surely not me. That doesn't take away from the fact that WC is uncommon in mma. wc is such a specialized art, the trapping range is a transitional range and is not a necessary range to master, but trained properly it can likely provide a good advantage.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not to mention, for like 10 years now people who only want to step in the cage will tend to only learn bare bones because its faster. Thats why there so much brawling and so little technique.

Theres a lot of brawling in the UFC of late, the technique happens on the mat.

I'll have to disagree. From what I've seen, the level of technique in the UFC and in MMA in general has been constantly improving since the beginning. The technique may not always look the same as it would in boxing or TKD or wrestling or Muay Thai or BJJ, because the demands of the sport are different, but it is absolutely there.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know who says we don't see tkd in MMA surely not me. That doesn't take away from the fact that WC is uncommon in mma. wc is such a specialized art, the trapping range is a transitional range and is not a necessary range to master, but trained properly it can likely provide a good advantage.

You see a lot of the concepts. The reason you don't see wing chun in mma is if you change one tiny part it is not wing chun anymore.

And you are not going to see wing chun in its entirety used successfully in mma.

 

[drop bear]

Theres a lot of brawling in the UFC of late, the technique happens on the mat. Also, theres definitely a lack of head kicks, of kicks in general. The only real kicking I've seen for a while is from people from kicking backgrounds (henderson, cerrone, etc.) who trained there before fighting in the UFC. There might be one or two leg kicks here or there, but that tends to be it. When it comes to striking, brawling is taking over the UFC. The high level TKD guys, were already high level TKD guys before their MMA training. They didnt Train in MMA then decide to do TKD. I've never heard of that, it's always the opposite. They may train with people from other arts for input, but they arent training in that art. As more and more people who want to get in the train only pick up Kickboxing/BJJ or wrestling, the diversity dies and fighters become more limited.

You are kind of shooting tkd in the foot there by suggesting brawling is more effective than tkd though.

I mean if they are brawling,not throwing kicks and leaving tkd for kickboxing. That in itself would say something about tkd.

 

[Drose427]

You are kind of shooting tkd in the foot there by suggesting brawling is more effective than tkd though.

I mean if they are brawling,not throwing kicks and leaving tkd for kickboxing. That in itself would say something about tkd.

The TKD guys arent leaving TKD. My point was, folks who only want to step in the cage tend to not study TMAs while going to their gym. They didnt give TMAs a shot because they dont see a point in dedicating themselves to a style and putting in years learning new material when theyre already getting what they need elsewhere. TKD is used in the cage all the time by folks who started there and wanted to use it in the cage. My entire point was just because something isnt in the cage, doesnt make it ineffective. I never suggested brawling was more effective, those were your words and not mine.

 

[drop bear]

The TKD guys arent leaving TKD. My point was, folks who only want to step in the cage tend to not study TMAs while going to their gym. They didnt give TMAs a shot because they dont see a point in dedicating themselves to a style and putting in years learning new material when theyre already getting what they need elsewhere. TKD is used in the cage all the time by folks who started there and wanted to use it in the cage. My entire point was just because something isnt in the cage, doesnt make it ineffective. I never suggested brawling was more effective, those were your words and not mine.

well if they are brawling in mma and not doing tkd. It is because brawling drops guys where tkd does not. Or they would be doing tkd.

I mean this idea that a system takes a bit to learn but when you know it you will clean house with it. Doesn't really work. Because it would take one person to know it, start beating people up and suddenly everybody would be putting in the time to learn it.

eg. Ronda rousey and judo.

 

[Drose427]

well if they are brawling in mma and not doing tkd. It is because brawling drops guys where tkd does not. Or they would be doing tkd.

I mean this idea that a system takes a bit to learn but when you know it you will clean house with it. Doesn't really work. Because it would take one person to know it, start beating people up and suddenly everybody would be putting in the time to learn it.

eg. Ronda rousey and judo.

Really? Because Silva, Pettis, Henderson, Cung Le, Dennis Siver, David Loiseau, all use and used TKD very effectively. Cung Le was a renowned kicker, many times throwing more kicks than punches. His record was 16-4 before he retired and he broke rich Franklins arm with TKD and people didnt swarm to learn it. Silva usesTKD kicks all the time, most notable his high round houses and front kick. People still aren't swarming to learn a new style. All of these fighters started beating people by using TKD blended with boxing and their respective grappling style. The idea that everyone will do it because it works isnt completely accurate. There are a lot of fighters who use wrestling over BJJ.

 

[drop bear]

Really? Because Silva, Pettis, Henderson, Cung Le, Dennis Siver, David Loiseau, all use and used TKD very effectively. Cung Le was a renowned kicker, many times throwing more kicks than punches. His record was 16-4 before he retired and he broke rich Franklins arm with TKD and people didnt swarm to learn it. Silva usesTKD kicks all the time, most notable his high round houses and front kick. People still aren't swarming to learn a new style. All of these fighters started beating people by using TKD blended with boxing and their respective grappling style. The idea that everyone will do it because it works isnt completely accurate. There are a lot of fighters who use wrestling over BJJ.

So there is tkd, high kicks and technical martial artists in mma?

 

[Drose427]

So there is tkd, high kicks and technical martial artists in mma?

In some of the older fighters, fewer and fewer new fighters are coming from TMA's.