T.K.D. is dead

Gorilla

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Why the change?? and what abou the e-hedgear?

Manny

E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action! I like them both! I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!
 

Gorilla

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I don't know, Dirty Dog. I think if you equate competitive arts to other sports, Taekwondo is like soccer. Anyone can throw or slap a ball. In contrast, Volleyball is like boxing.

I do wish there was more opportunity to practice more realistic sparring, but I like having a point system that emphasizes kicks.

Anyone can through or slap a ball! It does not appear that you know much about soccer? Don't really see your comparison!
 

Dirty Dog

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E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action! I like them both! I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!

Then start penalizing people for falling down and quit stopping the fight after pretty much every point that is scored....

I suspect that would do more than changing the shape of the ring.
 

Archtkd

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Then start penalizing people for falling down and quit stopping the fight after pretty much every point that is scored....

I suspect that would do more than changing the shape of the ring.

Yes people are penalized for falling (WTF rules changed in March) and nobody stops action because of a score. When there is a stoppage it's usualy because of an intentional clinch. Often, it's the person who got scored on that creates that clinch, in efforts to stop being scored on again.
 

Gorilla

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Most of the stoppages are over disputed head shots! Which should be gone once the E-Head gear is perfected!
 

Master Dan

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E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action! I like them both! I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!
All the E gear and computer scoring would not be needed at all if TKD fighting was taken back to its full contact origins. It was always obvious who won the match one person was down or could not continue. It rarely went to points. Can you imagine needing electronic scoring in a MMA fight? How pitiful the watered down techniques and political judging that corrupted referring to the point that people could not be trusted? I am all for more action that is why I liked the 7-12 rule encourage an opponent to just finish the fight instead of bouncing watching the score board and trying to just finish one point ahead.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I don't mind pushups, as I see the value in the exercise.

I don't like punching in a horse stance. I think most students have worse punching skill than leg strength. Consequently, I think most students would be better to punch for 5 minutes like a boxer, and learn that skill, than to sit in a horse stance for 5 minutes to work on leg strength. Someone here often posts that you fight like you train. I'd like to see more realistic punching in training. (I come from a KKW background rather than ITF).

Love push ups! Fantastic exercise that works multiple muscle groups. It is one of the staples in our physical fitness training.

In regards to punching (or anything) in a horse stance, I'll offer my view point. In my professional opinion, line drills are taken out of context. For example, punching is not done in a horse stance in real life. By that I mean you don't do it in sparring, competition or in a real fight. So we have a couple of options to consider; Either the 'masters of old' were idiots that really didn't know what they were doing or they knew exactly what they were doing and many don't fully understand it. With no intention of offending anyone, I honestly feel that many/most don't have a full grasp of what they were doing then or how we should be understanding it now. Let me see if I can at least offer a brief summary of why I feel this way. Based upon the way I was taught and the research that I've done;


  • I believe the 'masters of old' knew exactly what they were doing/teaching. They had a specific purpose for each and every movement.
  • I believe that, generally speaking, classes in the pre-WWII era were much smaller and much less commercialized that post-WWII to the modern era.
  • I believe that when the arts became more commercialized post-WWII era that certain short cuts and streamlining came into play to accommodate a larger class.
  • I believe that the horse stance, in addition to strengthening the legs and instilling discipline, demonstrate quite effectively the technique of lowering the center of balance to set the opponent/attacker up for a multitude of movements/principles/techniques including counter-strikes, covering up, taking them off balance while maintaining a solid platform, throwing or setting up a lock.
  • I believe that all blocks and many other movements have a better, more practical application than what is commonly presented.
  • Using the punch as an example, let me see if I can paint a picture that will describe what I mean. Since we don't 'punch' in the horse stance for sparring, competition or fighting/defending ourselves, what else could it mean? Well, from a line drill perspective, I don't have an issue with punching. It's a great warm up, strengthens the upper body and trains the muscles for the general movement. But what else? I would submit that it is the reverse of the movement we need to look at. As you read this, punch your fist out in front of you from the hip and leave it there a moment. Now, slowly bring it back to the hip. We see a few things when we do this; first the palm is face down and the fist is closed. This represents that you've grasped something (the attacker's limb, a piece of his clothing etc). Next, as you draw the hand back into your center of gravity you rotate your wrist so that the palm is face up as it nears your hip. This represents you taking that grasped limb/piece of clothing and bringing it into your center of gravity thereby unbalancing the opponent/attacker. Combine this with the horse stance; you grasp in a normal high stance (a fighting stance) and as you draw the opponent/attacker into your center of gravity you lower your own center of gravity by moving into a low horse stance. The horse stance doesn't necessarily need to be side-to-side but could be rearward at a 45 degree angle depending on the circumstance.

Try this with a partner. Reach out and grasp his wrist or top while you're in a standing/fighting stance. Now, while grasping him, rotate your hand back to your hip like you've done a million times while simultaneously lowering one leg into a deep horse stance. See how you are pulling him off balance and into your center of gravity? You just did Judo or Jujutsu or Hapkido or Chin Na or whatever art you'd like to call it. I would submit that you also did 'old school' Karate or Taekwondo as well. By incorporating this philosophy into our line drills it has opened up a plethora of principles that are already used in other arts and again I submit it could be and is a valid, legitimate part of Taekwondo also. The 'high block' becomes a forearm smash as you're bringing him into you. The 'palm heel block' turns into a sweep or throw. Its not a matter of inventing some new movement, the movement already exists and is present. It is simply a matter of reinterpreting the movement to illicit a different result. In all honesty, if one were interested in doing so, you could spend a full year of training on JUST line drills because of the total amount of applications contained in them. Same could be said of any form, in my opinion.
 
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Manny

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All the E gear and computer scoring would not be needed at all if TKD fighting was taken back to its full contact origins. It was always obvious who won the match one person was down or could not continue. It rarely went to points. Can you imagine needing electronic scoring in a MMA fight? How pitiful the watered down techniques and political judging that corrupted referring to the point that people could not be trusted? I am all for more action that is why I liked the 7-12 rule encourage an opponent to just finish the fight instead of bouncing watching the score board and trying to just finish one point ahead.

You mean something like this??? https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=748019441925623

Manny
 

Dirty Dog

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Yes Manny. But without the hogu. Pads in the hands and feet. Headgear. Go for it.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
 

Gorilla

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Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action! Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized. Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly. We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this). Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.

i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD. We would participate in such an event! I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics.

I believe we have room for both!
 

Archtkd

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  • I believe that the horse stance, in addition to strengthening the legs and instilling discipline, demonstrate quite effectively the technique of lowering the center of balance to set the opponent/attacker up for a multitude of movements/principles/techniques including counter-strikes, covering up, taking them off balance while maintaining a solid platform, throwing or setting up a lock.
The importance of stances stressed by all good teachers was widely explored in an interesting scholarly paper presented at the World Taekwondo Leaders forum in Seoul last year. The paper was titled “Value of Character in Taekwondo Training” and was authored by Youn Je Hong of the Korea Martial Philosophy Center and the Korea Sports Leaders Association. All the papers presented at the conference can be found on a single PDF file on this link: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/upload/pr/news/2013_forum_material2.pdf

Here are some key points excerpted from Youn Je Hong’s paper, which has some English grammatical and spelling errors"

"... Taekwondo stances are design to find the core line of body and to offset the gravity by means of distributing the weight evenly to all joints. It is easy to find out whether a trainee maintains the core line of body. Just push or pull when a trainee is posing 'Juchum seogi'. Most of trainee will lose the balance easily. However once a trainee found the core line and learn how to maintain the core line, he would stand still with 'Juchum seogi'. This is why 'Juchum seogi' is regarded as the basic stance of Taekwondo...

... In old days, it was told the beginner of Taekwondo had to practice just 'Juchum seogi' for three years. This may sound unrealistic but it will make sense if he learn the core line, the center of power and anatomy trains during first three years. In fact the first three years practice might decide thereafter entire Taekwondo progress, because the habit is hard to change once it is settled down...

... Usually a trainee find the core line of body while he stand up, then slowly bend the knees for 'Juchum seogi' until he reach the counter balanced point with weight. This balanced state is called 'Juchum seogi' which means half-sit down and half-stand up. In fact this counter balanced point on the core line of abdomen is the center of power, often called 'Dan Jun'. This 'Dan Jun' is also the starting pont of developing the anatomy trains explained above. These concept of core line and anatomy trains are based on the practice of punching with 'Juchum seogi' as well as kicking practice in the air. ..."
 

Master Dan

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I trained with people that went to and placed in the 3rd and 4th World tournaments. Thanks Manny that was some decent action not what we see today.
 

Master Dan

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Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action! Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized. Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly. We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this). Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.

i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD. We would participate in such an event! I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics.

I believe we have room for both!
Yes your right and punching in most cases is a lost art in TKD and hard to see refs even after instruction to score it was not done. Mainly because punching was so week. The Olympics is a money machine with different goals from that of traditional MA and has proven to not be the huge windfall nationally as was promised or promoted. I support sport for those who need it. But if we look back to history modern TKD had its largest increase in practitioners in Korea when it was incorporated into the public school system which then makes its focus non-profit. I believe the largest financial money base for modern TKD is to focus on its educational and health benefits to the public school system in the US. If I can get relocated and live another 20 years I hope to take 40 years of successful programs and grant research in remote areas to the lower 48 next year god willing and the creak don't rise.
 

Manny

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Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action! Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized. Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly. We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this). Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.

i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD. We would participate in such an event! I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics.

I believe we have room for both!

Thank you sir for your input and yes we want something that's not olimpic kyorugi, maybe we could find a place in ponit karate games? maybe. I think we shall make a diference beetwen olimpic kyorugi and the old school kyorugi, I will love to use only foot and hand pads and maybe a helmet allowing hand techs to the face/head with control.

Manny
 

Cho, Yeonsoo

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Maybe we are saturated of TKD, you see TKD in every corners, there are so many tornaments out there where people step, step, step kick, step,step,kick-kickm using funny equipment with very low technique and almost everithing counting as a point in the kyorugy.

Maybe if we just focus on basics we can recuperate the nice martial art we have been doing for so many years.

I am a tecnique passionate, not a sport crazy man, and the side of the sport is wining over the martial art. With all respect the guys of the martial art cumunity I used to hang on takes tkd as a mac dojong or belt factories and belive this guys (karate, aikido, kung fu) are working very hard to show the people in my twon waht a good karate class is or a good aikido class is, even given exhibitions at the open and we (tkd) inside the MacDojangs doing step step step and kick and playing games because the children get bored easily or even planing the next halloween party in customes inside dojang with a very nice PIÑATA!!! C'mon!!!

Karate is resurging in the society of my town, aikido is gainin space rapidily and TKD is crowded with kids wanting to be the next olimpic star!!

So who's fault? We, very simple.

Manny
I agree, but not completely, the club of which I participate in, we are full of teenagers and older men, why? because us teenagers are the ones that joined as little kids, the reason our club has an ageing population, is because of the fact that children do not join these days, they all want "Karate" and want to be "ninjas". Our Grand Master (chong Kwanjangnim) is a quite well-known man (Lee Sung Soo) and he is a 9th dan TKD and 9th dan in Hapkido, THUS, he inserts weapons training, unarmed self defense against weapons and Hapkido techniques as a part of the syllabus. so, it's really about the Dojang you go to, NOT the art itself
 

Rich Parsons

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It's been said since at least the 90s (on USENET) that "repetition is the very soul of the internet".

I disagree you unmarried person YOU! (* Insdie joke from another site *)
It is not the very soul, it is the center. Bringing Religion into this discussion of Martia Arts. How dare you Arni! ;)

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On a serious note, there are ups and downs for all forums as people come and go and new people strive to work their way into a position of knowledge or sharing knowledge.
And in the end repetition is unavoidable. We repeat mistakes in history all the time, I mean on the internet a month old post is like a decade ago of international history / news.
 

tifire

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Dead? I still see T.K.D. is one of the most popular boards on MT.
 

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