Subjective Rank Grading

[Makalakumu]

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that their ranking system was completely subjective. The teacher graded you when they thought you were ready. I thought this was interesting. How would the instructor know that you were ready without some objective standards? Do the standards shift on an individual basis? Are the "standards" unsaid expectations?

For those of you who have experienced rank grading like this, perhaps you can shed some light on how this actually works...

upnorthkyosa

 

[tshadowchaser]

I would have to know more on what the teacher xpecte befor I say much.
I don't tellmy students when they will tst but the know they must have certian knowledge to pass its the unexpected things I might throw in a test that throws some of them (ya they are made to think once in a while)

 

[Robert Lee]

An instructor should know by seeing the student has improved enough to go on to the next level. Or that instructor is not ready to instruct. Each person has limitations. And knowing the students that you teach/ guide Should way into how you promote then in your class. Some many now schools test at months of training in set rank. Some people can learn faster then others some slower. So time is not as important to set a standard test time. NOw at highter ranks yes time should be looked at more to give a level of improved skill that represents that rank. No one black belts Age is another facter. And no under 16 full black belt tests should happen. Used to call under 16 junior black belt and retest at 16. No days rank is given to 6 year old black belts. So looking at one school to the other I would think style/ method and structure deturmines time it takes to move on. If you look at requirements and performance You would move them up slower as performance to takes time . That being performance is how one can use the different tools taught in non prearranged drills and spars.

 

[MJS]

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that their ranking system was completely subjective. The teacher graded you when they thought you were ready. I thought this was interesting. How would the instructor know that you were ready without some objective standards? Do the standards shift on an individual basis? Are the "standards" unsaid expectations?

For those of you who have experienced rank grading like this, perhaps you can shed some light on how this actually works...

upnorthkyosa

I would think that it should be an equal balance of a few things:

A) The student knowing, understanding, and being able to perform the required material.

B) The instructor seeing the above things, and then deciding the student is ready.

Unfortunately, it seems today, that a number of people use a preset time frame in which to test the students. Nothing wrong, in and of itself with this, however, the students take advantage of it. If the teacher says it'll take 3 months to go from white to yellow, you can almost bet that after the 3 months are up, the student is going to want to be tested. Even if the material is a 5 on a scale of 1-10, they still want to be tested because they met the time requirement.

Once a student reaches the upper levels of Black, its not so much physical requirements, but now, not only going back to really take the material to another level, but also, how long you've been at that certain grade, as well as what you've given back to the art.

Mike

 

[RoninPimp]

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that their ranking system was completely subjective. The teacher graded you when they thought you were ready. I thought this was interesting. How would the instructor know that you were ready without some objective standards? Do the standards shift on an individual basis? Are the "standards" unsaid expectations?

For those of you who have experienced rank grading like this, perhaps you can shed some light on how this actually works...

upnorthkyosa

-This is how its done in most BJJ schools. There are only 5 ranks for adults. White, Blue, Purple, Brown, and Black. A few instructors have a list of what should be known for each rank, but they are in the minority. The instructor promotes you when he feels you are ready. How does he know this? Just through observation. How well do you do rolling against other belt levels? Are you progressing technically? And not just dominating guys with physical attributes and athleticism. There are distinct developement points at each level.

The biggest step imo, is from blue to purple. It takes "mat maturity" to take that step. This is when you realize (or have it beat into your head) that every sparring session is not the finals at the Mundials. You realize that you have to work on weaknesses in your game. To do that usually means you take more *** beatings in class. Training is no place for ego.

 

[stickarts]

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that their ranking system was completely subjective. The teacher graded you when they thought you were ready. I thought this was interesting. How would the instructor know that you were ready without some objective standards? Do the standards shift on an individual basis? Are the "standards" unsaid expectations?

For those of you who have experienced rank grading like this, perhaps you can shed some light on how this actually works...

upnorthkyosa

I see a lot of challenges with that method of grading. How do you set specific goals for the student to work for? How do you keep a fair uniform standard for all?
I don't grade only on required material alone, but having set objectives helps lend structure to our program, gives specific goals to shoot for, and gives students a sense of accomplishment.
I haven't heard of strictly using subjective methods before however i am interested in hearing from those that have and what they feel, in their actual experience, the pro's and cons are!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

my school is a kenpo studio, so we have the charts of techniques as well as a time in grade requirement as a baseline.

how well they know all the techniques is where things get a little fuzzy, especially for children. i'd much rather see somebody doing the techniques a little less than perfectly, but demonstrate real will and personal growth, than somebody snap out the techs like jet li but showing no love for the art or personal evolution.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that having a standardized, rank by rank curriculum is a more modern concept. back in the day, I think a system contained a body of knowledge and techniques and kata, but exactly when they needed to be taught was more a judgement call of the instructor, so this left rank promotion also more open to his judgement call.

Some arts are still done this way. My capoeira school is a good example. There is absolutely no standardized curriculum, and no kata in the way Asian arts tend to have kata, but there is a large body of techniques that we train in the system. Everyone can train any of the techniques, no matter what level they are at. Some techiques are essential for developing a strong base and basics, so these would be focused on more heavily with the beginners, but that doesn't mean the beginners can't do other things too. Once the instructor feels your overall development and use of your knowledge has improved sufficiently, you can be promoted. More advanced students are expected to be able to do certain things that a beginner would not be expected to do, but all levels can work on it together and it is not entered into a strict curriculum.

Sometimes people who have trained in a more structured system find this frustrating, because they never know what they need to know. But the truth is, they need to know it all, but the development is gradual, over time.

 

[RoninPimp]

I think that having a standardized, rank by rank curriculum is a more modern concept. back in the day, I think a system contained a body of knowledge and techniques and kata, but exactly when they needed to be taught was more a judgement call of the instructor, so this left rank promotion also more open to his judgement call.

Some arts are still done this way. My capoeira school is a good example. There is absolutely no standardized curriculum, and no kata in the way Asian arts tend to have kata, but there is a large body of techniques that we train in the system. Everyone can train any of the techniques, no matter what level they are at. Some techiques are essential for developing a strong base and basics, so these would be focused on more heavily with the beginners, but that doesn't mean the beginners can't do other things too. Once the instructor feels your overall development and use of your knowledge has improved sufficiently, you can be promoted. More advanced students are expected to be able to do certain things that a beginner would not be expected to do, but all levels can work on it together and it is not entered into a strict curriculum.

Sometimes people who have trained in a more structured system find this frustrating, because they never know what they need to know. But the truth is, they need to know it all, but the development is gradual, over time.

-Belt rank in the martial arts only goes back to the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

 

[beau_safken]

Arent all belt tests subjective thou? Honestly, even if there are requirements they are still subjective. That instructor will not have the same standards as another even if they give the same belt. I think thats a big reason I moved to arts that dont stress rank at all.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Another way for you to look at it is....Your instructor can see those who improve alot and learn quicker than others. Many students who love the arts will train harder than the rest of the class (spend time a home practicing and perfecting). Thus they advance themselves more than others.

There are a few students in our class who spend alot of time at home practicing, it shows too..you can see the difference compare to the other students who started about the same time.

Promotion should be base on skills, knowledge, time(off course reasonable), Your Instructors opinions. There is NO RULES for promotions other than what your school sets up or Instructors choice.

Your time will come..train hard, be patient, rank will come..Aloha

 

[Flying Crane]

-Belt rank in the martial arts only goes back to the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Of course, but even before the belt rankings, I think the order in which material was taught was more subjective and less standardized.

 

[beau_safken]

Course dude..how else could you have so many McBlackBeltz on the streets if not for the subjective "Best try" system. To hell with skill, a good college try is all that is necessary in most schools I have seen. Its really a dis-service to the students....Nothing like a euphoric McBB thinking they are Sierra Hotel about everything as they are a BB now....

 

[Grenadier]

In all of the schools that I trained at, requirements can, and do, vary from person to person.

While everyone is expected to have a certain level of proficiency in a set of techniques, along with a certain level of proficiency at their kata and kumite, this is only the final part of the examination. Only having the above proficiencies is not enough to get someone to the next rank, and I'll explain why.

Aside from the core requirements listed above, there was always an individual evaluation. Not only was the student's proficiency evaluated, but also his attitude in class, the amount of improvement he has made over the last time, etc. There were several other factors involved, and if the person were found deficient in those areas, then no amount of training hours and proficiency would get him to the next rank. In fact, he would not be given a form for his exam until after having improved in the deficient areas.

This varies from individual to individual, and dealing with those deficiencies is what helps make them better martial artists. It's not about Karateka A being better than Karateka B, but rather, Karateka A of today, being better than Karateka A from the past. Plain and simple.

 

[still learning]

Hello, For Judo ranking you have to win so many matches in the rank you are in. (some schools)

Long ago some schools..you had to fight for your rank, earn them this way. you couldn't advance until you were able to beat those at the same rank. Today..time and money works in alot of schools.

 

[Rich Parsons]

My thoughts on the two types of testing.

1) Objective testing:

The student knows exactly what techniques and what level they are expected to perfrom those techniques. This is good for large schools and organizations and also handles those little lawyers who actually read the requirement books.

Good points are that people know exactly what they are expected to know. Per test this is a good way to keep a level of skill and performance standard.

Bad points are they know exactly what they are expected to know and may not practice the old material. Per student this may not be the best way, unless other practices are put into place such as review of all prevous technqiues. I do this every other belt. This is written down for the students who argue about what is expected. The student may argue that they have spent enough time in said rank, even if they are not good enough.

2) Subjective testing:

Method A) There is a list of techniques to be tested and the student is tested on those techniques. The student may be excellant on some techniques and only average in others, when the desired is good. So this could be one method of subjective testing. Meaning that there is no exact requirement, but a list of requirements and some leeway to adjust for good and bad performances in different areas.

Method B) The instructor tests the student each day for progress, and then just one day tells the student that they have been promoted based upon their skills. This is subjected as the instructor tests the student each and every time and then decides when it is right. Yes there are most likely a group of fuzzy logic variable they are looking for, but even they may not be able to express it in words verbal or written.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are distinct developement points at each level.

Are these developmental points different for everyone or does the instructor have something specific in mind? If so, what?

 

[RoninPimp]

Are these developmental points different for everyone or does the instructor have something specific in mind? If so, what?

Speaking for myself only, based on my experiance. But with many conversations with my coaches and training partners. I'll summarize the BJJ progression thus...

They are more or less the same for everybody. That is not to say that every BJJ guy's game looks the same. Quite the contrary, as each athlete develops a uniques style. This happens without even trying. Certain techniques just become your "money moves" and you develop a game around them. Google "Roy Harris" he has written great articles on the subject. The development points for each belt imo...

White to blue: You have learned the basic BJJ positional strategy and a few techniques from each position. You can apply them against resisting opponents in sparring.

Blue to purple: You realize that you don't need to go balls out every sparring session. Training is not about proving yourself. Your personal game develops. And of course you've accumilated more advance techniques for the "toolbox".

Purple to brown: You've accumilated enough knowledge of technique (not that you ever stop adding things, it just happens a lot slower). It is the refinement belt I've been told. Go back and review every thing you think you know and focus on every little tiny detail. Tighten up every technique in your arsenal. This is what I'm trying to do as I've been a brown belt for about a year.

Brown to black: ???

 

[Kacey]

My thoughts on the two types of testing.

1) Objective testing:

The student knows exactly what techniques and what level they are expected to perfrom those techniques. This is good for large schools and organizations and also handles those little lawyers who actually read the requirement books.

Good points are that people know exactly what they are expected to know. Per test this is a good way to keep a level of skill and performance standard.

Bad points are they know exactly what they are expected to know and may not practice the old material. Per student this may not be the best way, unless other practices are put into place such as review of all prevous technqiues. I do this every other belt. This is written down for the students who argue about what is expected. The student may argue that they have spent enough time in said rank, even if they are not good enough.

We do this - there is a set of requirements, and you must demonstrate everything prior to your current rank in addition to your rank requirements to be promoted... so when one of my students tested for I Dan last year, he was required to demonstrate every pattern up to and including his testing pattern, as well as all of the techniques and drills required at each rank below the one he was testing for... so you can imagine what I had to do to test for IV Dan, and what my instructor went through for VI Dan.

No matter how the requirements are written down, there is a subjective piece to judging any demonstration of physical skill - one has only to look at the Olympics to understand what I'm saying; they have very clear, detailed, objective standards... and yet, there is a subjective piece that cannot be taken out.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree. We always had to keep re doing what we learned as well as the new stuff, for rank advancement.