Style bashing

jobo

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What it says is that I have actually been in combat. Have you? Combat is about fields of fire, awareness of the enemy, and coordinated movements with your squad-mates. If you are forced to engage in hand to hand, you've seriously screwed up.
Judging by the tenor of your posts, I would hazard a guess that you have never been in the military, so your idea of "combat" is probably closer to a drunken bar fight. Drunken bar fights are nowhere near actual combat. :)

While it's been fun laughing at your ridiculous arguments, you obviously have very little knowledge, and even less desire to gain any knowledge. Therefore, I will withdraw as most others have. :)

Have fun with your ego stroking!
the defintion of combat doesnt require you to be in the army
 
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Martial D

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What it says is that I have actually been in combat. Have you? Combat is about fields of fire, awareness of the enemy, and coordinated movements with your squad-mates. If you are forced to engage in hand to hand, you've seriously screwed up.
Judging by the tenor of your posts, I would hazard a guess that you have never been in the military, so your idea of "combat" is probably closer to a drunken bar fight. Drunken bar fights are nowhere near actual combat. :)

While it's been fun laughing at your ridiculous arguments, you obviously have very little knowledge, and even less desire to gain any knowledge. Therefore, I will withdraw as most others have. :)

Have fun with your ego stroking!
You do realize that the word combat also applies to..physical combat(combat sports?), and not just modern warfare right?

The fact that you randomly inserted that as if it were relevant to the conversation is frankly a bit strange.
 

Gerry Seymour

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his point that i don't necessarily agree with is that encouraging people in to believing they are better than they are may cause them to put themselves in danger , where as th fact seems to be, that the more people are exposed to ma, the less safe they feel

but you have brought in the old self defence self preservation argument, i see them as opposite ends of a spectrum, the more you have of one, the less you need of the other
Agreed. This is an area where vocabulary sometimes causes some conflict. When I hear "self-defense", I think of the physical defense once an attack happens. Self-preservation (or personal safety, or self-protection - the term I usually use) is IMO a larger topic, which can include self-defense. When someone asks if I teach self-defense, then asks how much time I spend on home safety, I tell them that's not the same topic. I don't claim to be highly knowledgeable about the techniques of home security. I do have significant knowledge about physical defensive tactics and techniques, and that's what I (mostly) teach. I also cover some of the closely related areas of the larger topic - things like threat avoidance, threat recognition, basic target hardening (personal more than home), etc.

Of course, others use the terms differently, and I'm okay with that, so long as they don't accuse me of making claims I don't make. I've never had a student think I was promising other than what I teach.

None of that is black-and-white to me. There's grey areas in that, which it's hard to draw a distinction.
 

ShortBridge

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You do realize that the word combat also applies to..physical combat(combat sports?), and not just modern warfare right?

The fact that you randomly inserted that as if it were relevant to the conversation is frankly a bit strange.

If your argument is that classical martial arts training doesn't properly prepare you for combat sports. I agree. As a matter of fact, that's been proven a million times over. I can't imagine any rational person at this point disagreeing.

But, "combat sports" didn't actually prepare Colin McGreggor for boxing the way that he was sure they did.

The thing about the internet is that you have no idea who you are criticizing. Combat veterans and LEO (for example) find your assertiveness that combat sports equates in any way to what they have seen and done in the world as absurd as you seem to think everyone who isn't you is.

You and a couple of other trolls are convinced that you know best and hop into every thread and even start your own to say, as you did at the beginning of this, that it's your obligation to expose everyone who doesn't think like you as a fake and you don't see how lovely ridiculous that is.

I'm done. I'll just grow my ignore list a bit and take a break from trying to contribute to these fora. The kudzu has taken over the garden.
 
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Martial D

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If your argument is that classical martial arts training doesn't properly prepare you for combat sports. I agree. As a matter of fact, that's been proven a million times over. I can't imagine any rational person at this point disagreeing.

But, "combat sports" didn't actually prepare Colin McGreggor for boxing the way that he was sure they did.

The thing about the internet is that you have no idea who you are criticizing. Combat veterans and LEO (for example) find your assertiveness that combat sports equates in any way to what they have seen and done in the world as absurd as you seem to think everyone who isn't you is.

You and a couple of other trolls are convinced that you know best and hop into every thread and even start your own to say, as you did at the beginning of this, that it's your obligation to expose everyone who doesn't think like you as a fake and you don't see how lovely ridiculous that is.

I'm done. I'll just grow my ignore list a bit and take a break from trying to contribute to these fora. The kudzu has taken over the garden.
Few things..
a)It's Conor not Collin

b) Boxing is also a combat sport

c)I didn't equate anything 'what soldiers have seen and done'. That other guy took issue with the word combat as if it somehow only referred to war, which is patently false. Nowhere else in this thread is war or soldiering mentioned or referred to, least of all by me.

d) I didn't 'hop into' this thread, I started it.

e) best wishes to you.
 

drop bear

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What are your qualifications for deciding what works and what doesn't?

What if someone looking at you and what you do decides you are wrong and you are misleading students etc?

Is an instructor who genuinely believes what he was taught works and so teaches his students a fraud then?

How do you prove what others teach doesn't work?

You are defending the establishment here.

The onus is on them to prove their stuff works. You buy a crash helmet. It is not for you to prove it doesn't work. You get cancer treatment you buy toothpaste. Anything. It is their duty to sell you a product that works.

If we don't have this then martial arts is mysticism and I don't have to be qualified in voodo. To know voodo is bunk.

Which is why you keep having to regurgitate arguments used religion.
 

drop bear

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If your argument is that classical martial arts training doesn't properly prepare you for combat sports. I agree. As a matter of fact, that's been proven a million times over. I can't imagine any rational person at this point disagreeing.

But, "combat sports" didn't actually prepare Colin McGreggor for boxing the way that he was sure they did.

The thing about the internet is that you have no idea who you are criticizing. Combat veterans and LEO (for example) find your assertiveness that combat sports equates in any way to what they have seen and done in the world as absurd as you seem to think everyone who isn't you is.

You and a couple of other trolls are convinced that you know best and hop into every thread and even start your own to say, as you did at the beginning of this, that it's your obligation to expose everyone who doesn't think like you as a fake and you don't see how lovely ridiculous that is.

I'm done. I'll just grow my ignore list a bit and take a break from trying to contribute to these fora. The kudzu has taken over the garden.

Go look up jokko Wilson, Williams? Something like that. You will see in the arena of special forces the exact same progression from voodo to evidence based training is occurring. And for the same reasons. They see and use what works.

People who actually have to use their systems Need a system that works.

People who don't can train any old thing because it doesn't really matter.
 

drop bear

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the defintion of combat doesnt require you to be in the army

This is less the case these days anyway. You can't just kick doors down and kill everyone. They are not all enemy soldiers.
 

drop bear

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Agreed. This is an area where vocabulary sometimes causes some conflict. When I hear "self-defense", I think of the physical defense once an attack happens. Self-preservation (or personal safety, or self-protection - the term I usually use) is IMO a larger topic, which can include self-defense. When someone asks if I teach self-defense, then asks how much time I spend on home safety, I tell them that's not the same topic. I don't claim to be highly knowledgeable about the techniques of home security. I do have significant knowledge about physical defensive tactics and techniques, and that's what I (mostly) teach. I also cover some of the closely related areas of the larger topic - things like threat avoidance, threat recognition, basic target hardening (personal more than home), etc.

Of course, others use the terms differently, and I'm okay with that, so long as they don't accuse me of making claims I don't make. I've never had a student think I was promising other than what I teach.

None of that is black-and-white to me. There's grey areas in that, which it's hard to draw a distinction.

And the idea that you should be some sort of savant versed in all things defensive is asking a bit much. Which is why people are spread too thin on the subject when they try to do it all.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When you say that Bagua guys should not "cross legs", is that "style basing"?

Bagua.jpg
 

psilent child

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I think every style have those made for Hollywood only moves. Does this mean it won't work? That's where sparring helps. Try it out. I call it style bashing if you only point out flaws in other arts and not your own cause there are flaws in every art. It like someone said earlier. It's about what you looking for in an art. I think BJJ is a great art. I would never use it in the street. Does it mean it sucks or doesn't work? No
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think every style have those made for Hollywood only moves. Does this mean it won't work? That's where sparring helps. Try it out. I call it style bashing if you only point out flaws in other arts and not your own cause there are flaws in every art. It like someone said earlier. It's about what you looking for in an art. I think BJJ is a great art. I would never use it in the street. Does it mean it sucks or doesn't work? No
I'd amend that statement: I would never use it on the street if I can stay standing.
 

drop bear

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I think every style have those made for Hollywood only moves. Does this mean it won't work? That's where sparring helps. Try it out. I call it style bashing if you only point out flaws in other arts and not your own cause there are flaws in every art. It like someone said earlier. It's about what you looking for in an art. I think BJJ is a great art. I would never use it in the street. Does it mean it sucks or doesn't work? No

Depends why you wouldn't use it. Most of the arguments against are bloody silly to be honest.
 

psilent child

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Depends why you wouldn't use it. Most of the arguments against are bloody silly to be honest.
I wouldnt use it on the street because I don't know all the variables. I seen a video where guy A had guy B in an arm bar. Guy B pulls out a knife with his free arm and stabs guy A. I'm not saying you can't get stabbed standing up. I'm just saying I don't want to be going for a limb on the ground and something worse happens. I would prefer to stay standing and move around as needs be. I had a buddy had a guy in a Guillotine. The guys friend came and kicked a field goal in my buddies face. My buddy had to have surgery because he couldn't breathe out of his nose. I can't remember the injury.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I wouldnt use it on the street because I don't know all the variables. I seen a video where guy A had guy B in an arm bar. Guy B pulls out a knife with his free arm and stabs guy A. I'm not saying you can't get stabbed standing up. I'm just saying I don't want to be going for a limb on the ground and something worse happens. I would prefer to stay standing and move around as needs be. I had a buddy had a guy in a Guillotine. The guys friend came and kicked a field goal in my buddies face. My buddy had to have surgery because he couldn't breathe out of his nose. I can't remember the injury.
Most of those arguments could be made about any grappling. The question is how possible is it to remain standing. The argument that a huge proportion of fights go to the ground doesn't hold up against any evidence I can find, except perhaps for LEO. But there is a lot of evidence that fights/attacks go to the ground often, and often without the consent of at least one of the involved parties. Now, with standing grappling experience, I'm less likely to end up on the ground than someone without standing grappling experience. But that still doesn't help once I end up there. I'm not interested in the full range of BJJ groundwork, but the basics of control and escape are well suited to defensive use, IMO.
 

DaveB

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You are defending the establishment here.

The onus is on them to prove their stuff works. You buy a crash helmet. It is not for you to prove it doesn't work. You get cancer treatment you buy toothpaste. Anything. It is their duty to sell you a product that works.

If we don't have this then martial arts is mysticism and I don't have to be qualified in voodo. To know voodo is bunk.

Which is why you keep having to regurgitate arguments used religion.

People sell stuff all the time with little or no proof of effectiveness and especially where the benefits are subjective (the heaĺth and beauty industry for example) it takes experts to test and disprove claims of effectiveness.

Also I stand by my earlier comment that a few months of genuine serious research would probably be enough to at least give a valid answer to the "what qualifies you to say this?" question.

So a different question. If your not willing to put the work in, the definition why should anyone who is listen to you?
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think BJJ is a great art. I would never use it in the street. Does it mean it sucks or doesn't work? No

I wouldnt use it on the street because I don't know all the variables. I seen a video where guy A had guy B in an arm bar. Guy B pulls out a knife with his free arm and stabs guy A. I'm not saying you can't get stabbed standing up. I'm just saying I don't want to be going for a limb on the ground and something worse happens. I would prefer to stay standing and move around as needs be. I had a buddy had a guy in a Guillotine. The guys friend came and kicked a field goal in my buddies face. My buddy had to have surgery because he couldn't breathe out of his nose. I can't remember the injury.

I think you have a limited idea of what BJJ encompasses. Street application is different from sport application.

Would I pull guard in a street fight and start hunting for armbars? No.

Would I throw an attacker and then control him on the ground with knee mount, tying up his arms so he can't punch or draw a weapon, and keep an eye on my surroundings while I decide whether to punch out my opponent, break his arm, hold him for the police, or get up and run if I see he has buddies coming to help him out? Yes. That's BJJ.

If I'm knocked down by a sucker punch and my attacker tries to kick or punch me while I'm down, would I use an open guard to protect myself from his attacks until I recovered my equilibrium enough to sweep him and get to my feet safely? Yes. That's BJJ.

If I'm tackled to the ground by a larger opponent who wants to sit on my chest and punch my face in, would I use my fundamental skills to prevent his strikes, reverse him, and get back to my feet? Yes. That's BJJ.

I will admit there are BJJ schools that don't teach the tactical requirements of using the art in a street context, but I try to make sure my students understand the difference between a tournament match and a mugging.
 

psilent child

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I think you have a limited idea of what BJJ encompasses. Street application is different from sport application.

Would I pull guard in a street fight and start hunting for armbars? No.

Would I throw an attacker and then control him on the ground with knee mount, tying up his arms so he can't punch or draw a weapon, and keep an eye on my surroundings while I decide whether to punch out my opponent, break his arm, hold him for the police, or get up and run if I see he has buddies coming to help him out? Yes. That's BJJ.

If I'm knocked down by a sucker punch and my attacker tries to kick or punch me while I'm down, would I use an open guard to protect myself from his attacks until I recovered my equilibrium enough to sweep him and get to my feet safely? Yes. That's BJJ.

If I'm tackled to the ground by a larger opponent who wants to sit on my chest and punch my face in, would I use my fundamental skills to prevent his strikes, reverse him, and get back to my feet? Yes. That's BJJ.

I will admit there are BJJ schools that don't teach the tactical requirements of using the art in a street context, but I try to make sure my students understand the difference between a tournament match and a mugging.
I know exactly what BJJ consists of and I still would prefer to stand in a fight. I don't to get up and run when I see his buddies coming. I want to already be on my feet moving. Like I said though that's my opinion. I still think it's a great art. I would love to do a competition one day.
 

JR 137

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Most of those arguments could be made about any grappling. The question is how possible is it to remain standing. The argument that a huge proportion of fights go to the ground doesn't hold up against any evidence I can find, except perhaps for LEO. But there is a lot of evidence that fights/attacks go to the ground often, and often without the consent of at least one of the involved parties. Now, with standing grappling experience, I'm less likely to end up on the ground than someone without standing grappling experience. But that still doesn't help once I end up there. I'm not interested in the full range of BJJ groundwork, but the basics of control and escape are well suited to defensive use, IMO.
My main argument against BJJ and ground fighting in general (not all BJJ is all ground fighting) is I would never engage in a "jujitsu match" in a barroom or any other similarly crowed area (concert, outdoor festival, etc.). While I was bar tending, I noticed a disturbing trend...

Others would tend to watch and let people fight it out when both people were on their feet. Once it went to the ground, it turned into a free for all with one or the other guy usually getting a foot or bottle to their head.

My theory is people tended to let it be a "fair fight" when both guys were on their feet, and then feel like someone's had enough when it goes to the ground and feel like they have to jump in. I haven't been to those bars in 15 years or so, so maybe things changed since. Maybe that's how it goes where I live and I'm living in some odd bubble. Most likely not to either one of those though.
 

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