Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?

[Hanzou]

So recently a dojo has come under attack for being fraudulent. This dojo claims to combine Ninjutsu, Aikijutsu, and some other unpronounceable ancient Japanese arts, and began to really promote their art to the world via YouTube and other social media. The online MA community responded in kind, quickly investigating this dojo, and discovering that a lot of their claims are false or made up. Their demonstrations are full of silly things that any experienced artist could see is completely bogus. Yet this school appears quite successful, and full of students who enjoy their training.

The "Soke" hasn't been too happy with the criticism of his style, and has responded in kind, with his students defending him, and his training methods.

While I find all of this entertaining, I can't help but wonder if we as martial artists should allow such places to exist. Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore. However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts? Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed? Conversely, should we live and let live, and hope that the students eventually find a legitimate style to train in?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

 

[Blindside]

If someone tells me their 10 year old brother/nephew/cousin/son got their black belt, I generally say "thats nice" and leave it at that. If someone asks me my opinion about a school I will give it to them as honestly as I can, but quite frankly I am not going to spend my time trying to chase down ever piss-poor instructor out there, I have way better things to do with my time.

 

[Danny T]

I have no need or desire to promote my school, our methods, or our skills through the criticism of another school or instructor. We do what we do in the manner we do it; they do what they do. People come to the martial arts for many different reasons; if the school is meeting the individuals needs or wants Great. With the huge amount of information available today for anyone who really wants the information/knowledge and they stay with what they are doing, it is by choice. I really don't want the kool aid drinkers, I want people who are information seekers and who are discerning. If someone asks about something specific or if a video is posted and requesting opinions or comments I may opine to the specifics.

 

[Hanzou]

I have no need or desire to promote my school, our methods, or our skills through the criticism of another school or instructor. We do what we do in the manner we do it; they do what they do. People come to the martial arts for many different reasons; if the school is meeting the individuals needs or wants Great. With the huge amount of information available today for anyone who really wants the information/knowledge and they stay with what they are doing, it is by choice. I really don't want the kool aid drinkers, I want people who are information seekers and who are discerning. If someone asks about something specific or if a video is posted and requesting opinions or comments I may opine to the specifics.

While true, I doubt that many people come to the martial arts to learn B.S. from a liar and a phony. Also while there is a lot of information out there, many people don't know how to use that information in order to make good decisions.

 

[Danny T]

While true, I doubt that many people come to the martial arts to learn B.S. from a liar and a phony. Also while there is a lot of information out there, many people don't know how to use that information in order to make good decisions.

I believe most people are intelligent enough to use the information available and are very capable of making good decisions. If they do not seek or use the information available to be informed to make a good decision it is not my job to make them. And, if they are unwilling to seek out and be discerning with their decisions do I really want them as students? My responsibility is to instruct intelligent, motivated, and insightful persons who have good judgement the skill sets of the martial arts I teach.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have no time for frauds, charlatans and fools. Fraud in the martial arts is some thing we should all be concerned about. Like Blindside said if someone asks me for my opinion I will gladly give it and with brutal honesty. Likewise my time is way to valuable for me to be chasing down every piss poor martial artist and fraudulent instructor.

Yet, I do believe in standing up for what is right and if I feel I can make a difference in some way or to help someone stay away from fraudulent people then I will! I wrote a blog post about this awhile ago and it also links to an even better post on this subject by Don Roley on his excellent blog.

Frauds In The Martial Sciences?? | The Instinctive Edge?

I would advise anyone before training to investigate who they will be training with. Do a google search at the very least!

 

[Hanzou]

I believe most people are intelligent enough to use the information available and are very capable of making good decisions.

I disagree. The martial arts is a pretty vast, alien entity that most people have no clue about. My friends and family still have no idea what Bjj is for example.

If they do not seek or use the information available to be informed to make a good decision it is not my job to make them. And, if they are unwilling to seek out and be discerning with their decisions do I really want them as students? My responsibility is to instruct intelligent, motivated, and insightful persons who have good judgement the skill sets of the martial arts I teach.

Isn't there an inherent danger to legitimate martial arts if phony and fraudulent arts are allowed to spread?

 

[K-man]

What makes this school bogus? Does the instructor (Soke) have experience in the arts that he is teaching? Who decides what is 'legit' and what is not? What claims are they making?

On the whole it disappoints me to see schools that I consider sub-standard but at the end of the day people have the right to choose. If what this crowd are doing makes the students happy, gives them some exercise and gets them out of the house, who cares? There are an awful lot of McDojos out there already. I can't see one more causing an enormous problem.

 

[Steve]

Fraudulent styles or fraudulent schools?


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[Danny T]

I disagree. The martial arts is a pretty vast, alien entity that most people have no clue about. My friends and family still have no idea what Bjj is for example.

Didn't say people have a clue. This I agree with. What I said is people are intelligent enough to use the information to learn and make good decisions. The problem is people 'do not' seek the information. That is their responsibility. I can not instruct everyone nor do I want to. How much research have they done to learn of what BJJ is. I get the same thing with persons coming and stating they looking for jitsu. I ask Japanese or Brazilian and they just stare stumped.

Isn't there an inherent danger to legitimate martial arts if phony and fraudulent arts are allowed to spread?

Maybe, after all; wrestling, grappling, judo, bjj, sambo, and all the other ground fighting arts are suffering as legitimate forms of fighting because of the phony aspects of Professional Wrestling; Right? No actually there are more people training in ground arts than ever before.

There will always be frauds. There will always be those wanting to just make money over all else and there will always be people like us who will be honest and forth right in our training, instruction, and dealings with our students. Just as there will always be those that are irresponsible or too lazy to research to assure what they are getting into is legit. If they ask I will opine. I deal with my students in an open, honest, ethical, and professional manner. I even recommend that they go to the other schools and try them out also. I don't have time or energy to be concerned with what others do and how they do it.

 

[Hanzou]

What makes this school bogus? Does the instructor (Soke) have experience in the arts that he is teaching? Who decides what is 'legit' and what is not? What claims are they making?

The lineages are bogus, the styles he supposedly teach don't exist, and the techniques are on the level of ki-master nonsense.

On the whole it disappoints me to see schools that I consider sub-standard but at the end of the day people have the right to choose. If what this crowd are doing makes the students happy, gives them some exercise and gets them out of the house, who cares? There are an awful lot of McDojos out there already. I can't see one more causing an enormous problem.

To be fair, McDojos are still legitimate schools that teach legitimate martial arts. There's a lot a TKD McDojos out there, but TKD is still a real style of MA, and I would say that the instructors in TKD McDojos are teaching a real martial art, as watered down as it is.

There's a big difference between that, and some guy making up a style of MA from ancient Japan, and lying about his martial training in order to make his made-up style more ancient and mysterious. If you're going to make up a style, at least be up front about it. Like Quantum Jujutsu for example. They're pretty up front about the origins of their style.

 

[Hanzou]

Fraudulent styles or fraudulent schools?

Both.

 

[jezr74]

Can you post the links?

 

[Steve]

Couple of thoughts. Here on mt, fraud busting isn't done. Bullshido does a nice job, and they're fun to read.

In genral, at least in America, you might find yourself in a defamation suit, which could be lengthy and expensive. I'm not a lawyer, so this is only my lay understanding. Point is, if a guy has credentials even if they're suspect, you are on shaky ground., there are no regulatory standards for martial arts. No licenses or state requirements.

So, all that to say, sure. Frauds and charlatans should be exposed. Bulshido does it right. They have a lawyer on staff. They stick very diligently to facts that can be supported, and they write very thorough articles that avoid emotion or subjectivity.

If you don't intend to do the same, I'd advise against it.

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[WaterGal]

Well, there's not really any way to not "allow" bad or inauthentic schools to exist. If you go around badmouthing other people - or worse, show up at their place and try to start something - you just look like a jerk.

I think the best thing to do is to just do better work than them. People who care will see the difference.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Just get over it. I am freaking out half the time because you guys are doing what your styles tell you to do. I can't run around saying that, and because I am doing things that I know would freak all you guys out, I am confidant that no body is qualified to decide which schools should and should not exist. Let the market play it out.

 

[Hanzou]

Can you post the links?

I'd rather not. If you're curious about the dojo mentioned in the OP, I could PM you the info.

 

[Hanzou]

Couple of thoughts. Here on mt, fraud busting isn't done. Bullshido does a nice job, and they're fun to read.

In genral, at least in America, you might find yourself in a defamation suit, which could be lengthy and expensive. I'm not a lawyer, so this is only my lay understanding. Point is, if a guy has credentials even if they're suspect, you are on shaky ground., there are no regulatory standards for martial arts. No licenses or state requirements.

So, all that to say, sure. Frauds and charlatans should be exposed. Bulshido does it right. They have a lawyer on staff. They stick very diligently to facts that can be supported, and they write very thorough articles that avoid emotion or subjectivity.

If you don't intend to do the same, I'd advise against it.

Good advice. Fortunately we have places like Bullshido to handle these types of places.

 

[Steve]

Just get over it. I am freaking out half the time because you guys are doing what your styles tell you to do. I can't run around saying that, and because I am doing things that I know would freak all you guys out, I am confidant that no body is qualified to decide which schools should and should not exist. Let the market play it out.

Now I'm intrigued. What are we doing that freaks you out and What exactly are you doing that you think would freak me out?


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[jks9199]

Here on MT, the answer's kind of clear:

1.10.2 No Art bashing.

No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.


1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting.

It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.

That said, there's some room for discussion -- polite and factually based, and done with respect -- regarding the legitimacy of styles or claims.

In general -- it depends. A simple set of questions might be good guidance: Are the claims illegal? Are they doing things that are unsafe, illegal, or damaging to the students? After that -- who's asking? If a friend is asking my opinion, and I might tell them what I think -- but my personal rule about advice to friends is generally that, once given, I'm done. I don't care if you take the advice or not.