Strengthtraining and martial arts

wim

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Lets begin with starting to introduce myself.
I am a 46 years guy from Holland, so sorry for my bad Englisch.
Since the age off 15 I practice all kinds off martial arts.
I have never paid much attention to special strengthtraining for martial arts, but since Internet I know you have to train your strength.
So I have tried everything, bodybuilding programms, Brook Rubik dinosaur training, bodyweight exercises etc.

Nothing seems to fit in. Most off the routines have to be done 3 times a week (thats more as my martial arts trianing is) and sometimes they were so demanding that I didnt have any energy left for my martial arts training.
So I trained 3 times a week strength, then martial arts and running, skipping rope etc.

Now I have bought the book High Intensity training the Mike Mentzer way because I know there are some martial artist who use the same workout.

Are there any other martial artsist outthere who have tried it to. And did you do then the splittraining as suggested in that book or whol body workouts and if so what kind off exercises etc.

Or maybay there are other martial artist outthere who have other routines that works good. I have read a lott to about olympic lifting etc. to.

Can anybody help me with puttine a good solid routine together wich I can use.

I am not to fat or to skinny. I am 1.86 m long and my weight is about 90 kilo.

I just want to get stronger and off course a little bit more musculair but it have to be a supplement of my martial arts training.

I dont have any pulley stuff, just a barbell, dumbells, lots off weights, a bench, I can do dips and I can do pull-ups.

Hope someone can help me.
 

Keikai

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What art do you train? In the ju jutsu and aikido that I have done for the past 38 years we never trained for strength. We trained to take the opponents strength from them by unbalancing, that way you are always stronger than your opponent.

Greg Palmer
Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
 

Adept

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What art do you train? In the ju jutsu and aikido that I have done for the past 38 years we never trained for strength. We trained to take the opponents strength from them by unbalancing, that way you are always stronger than your opponent.

Greg Palmer
Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

No matter what art you do, increased strength is always beneficial.

Added to that, the health benefits are significant. Increased metabolism, healthier immune system, greater bone density and so on.
 

The Kidd

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I have been "working out" for 20 years and my workouts have changed depending on the activities I am doing whether it was American Football, baseball, or now Martial Arts. If you have not been working out regularly, meaning not a specific routine then I would recommend Circuit Training at first, work everybody part in a circuit. It can be 1 set 8 reps or 3 sets 8 reps but go something like Chest, Back, Biceps, Triceps, Shoulders, and Legs. Do that twice and then maybe 3 times the next day depending how your body reacts. Your second time thru the circuit mix things up if you did dumbell presses for your chest exercise the first go around then do flys the next go around.

After you have been doing this for several days and your body adjusts then I do a single body part a day (but I work out 5 times a week) do that for several weeks (your body will plateau after a certain time and you will not feel like your going anywhere) change routines, going 12 to 15 reps instead of 8 and lower the weight amounts.

Another good workout is one I got off of Rich Franklin of the UFC and I call it "Super Circuit", it is doing circuit training but do 15 reps 3 times per body part, between the first and second set you rest for 15 seconds and between the second and third sets you rest only 20 seconds and then run to the next body part, Franklin does this for an hour I have been only able to keep up the pace for about 30 to 40 minutes before I collapse but it is great for strength and endurance.

All this does not include your ab training as well as your cardio which I do after all the other. Exercises that are good for Martial Arts are obviously sit ups, push ups, dumbell raises(for your shouders), and different types of lunges and squats (for your legs and hips).

Hope this helps and good luck.
 

searcher

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I have been giving the same advice to my clients and students regarding this subject for some time now. No two people can do the same workout and get the exact results that they both need. All I am saying is that you are going to have to identify your specific areas that you need help on and set up your workout accordingly. A good total body workout will help overall conditioning and is good for beginners, but after a few months you need to set up an individualized workout for what you are trying to get done.
 

exile

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Greetings, Wim---let me give you some background on my own training program, which you may find of interest since it incorporates and extreme form of high-intensity practice. I started serious weight training just about ten years ago when I was forty-nine, and have been using the Sisco-Little `Power Factor' version---a distant cousin of Mentzer's program---for at least seven of those years. I am an ectomorph with a very fast metabolism, and while I've always been strong for my weight, that isn't saying much---well into my 30s I weighted in at around 155lbs distributed over 6'1". This general profile is good for health, but it usually means that it's almost impossible to gain muscle, and that's how it was for me.

After a few years of mostly unfocused training I came across the Sisco/Little books. Their approach seemed eminently sensible to me, based as it is on well-documented facts about neuromuscular function and activity. Their reasoning works this way:

* Both in vivo (muscle biopsy) and electrovoltaic measurement experiments strongly suggest that the body will activate just enough neuromuscular motor units as are needed to move a given weight;

*if the weight exceeds the combined ability of all available motor units to move it, the latter will stop firing;

*if the weight falls within the already existent abilities of the body to shift it, then no more motor units will be called on no matter how many times you shift the weight, i.e., reps at the ability you already have do not increase the number of units you recruit for the exercise;

*muscle growth is proportional to the number of motor units that are called upon to move the weights you use in your exercise.

What this means is, the heavier you lift, the more of the available motor units you recruit, and the more muscle growth you experience. But your ability to lift is not determined purely by your musculature; skeletal leverage plays a crucial role too. Everyone performing a bench press, for example, reaches a point when if they drop the weight any further, they'll never get it back up again. If you confine your weights to what you can lift over a full range of motion, you will be unable to lift the much heavier weights you can lift for shorter-length reps in the zone where your leverage factors are optimal.

Sisco and Little therefore advocate the following:

(i) train max weights over short reps in your strongest leverage range.

(ii) for pressing exercises, this means you need to use a power rack. Typically, lifting 3'" reps instead of 12" reps adds another 100lbs or so to your bench press right off the bat.

(iii) your goal is to add 5% to your weights each training session and do the same number of reps in the same time frame, or shorter (power = force divided by time).

(iv) you must absolutely recover fully for this program to work, which meant, for me, that after a couple of years on it I was doing 405lb bench presses over about an inch of quite rapid reps, once every three weeks to a month or more.

Over the seven years I did this I added probably 25 lbs of muscle, judging from my weight and bodyfat composition. That's a substantial gain, so that though no one will every confuse me with one of Weider's steroid-bloated titans, I have more than enough strength for most MA purposes, and am way quicker as well. As a result of this experience I'm quite convinced that high-intensity is a viable, efficient system. Furthermore, the facts about neuroanatomy that it's predicated on are not subject to individual variation---Sisco & Little's research showed that the correlation between % of motor units recruited, muscle growth, and the all-or-nothing property of motor unit recruitment hold generally, that it's the result of basic properties of how it is that neuron bundles and muscle tissue interact. So I'm inclined to thing that high intensity will work effectively for you if you work at it consistently. Once you get started, work out no more than twice a week. At one point, if you're doing high intensity right, you'll find this is too frequent and will have to drop to once a week, then twice a month... the fact is, it can take the body a week to ten days to recover from a major high intensity work out, and that still doesn't take into account the `growth' phase, just the recovery phase. As I say, I got to the point where if I worked the either of the two muscle groups I train together more than onece every three weeks, it hurt my performance next time, in a very obvious way. Back off, and the numbers improve again.

I broke the exercises down as follows:

Group 1: Chest (weighted dips and power-rack bench press), biceps (weighted palm-inward chins) and quads (leg press machine), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six weeks.

Group 2: Shoulders (seated power-rack presses), lats (weighted palm-outward chins), triceps (weighted dips), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six week alternating with Group 1.


So I'm exercising weights every 2-3 weeks.

I train each group for a total of no more than about forty-five minutes each session. I would try the Mentzer version---it differs from the Sisco/Little approach in several ways, and I find the latter more plausible in its assumptions than Mentzer's story---but I've no doubt that if you use a consistent and relatively infrequent application of the HI approach, you will notice very serious strength gains, and you'll look markedly more muscular. Good luck on your program!
 
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wim

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Thank you all very much guys.
Exile, I think I will start the H.I.T.-training. You have explained it so well and I have read other storys about this kind off training as well.

Again, thank you all.
 

exile

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Thank you all very much guys.
Exile, I think I will start the H.I.T.-training. You have explained it so well and I have read other storys about this kind off training as well.

Again, thank you all.

Wim---our pleasure, and keep us posted on how your training is going or if any further questions come up (if you want to PM me, that would be fine; I'm no expert but, as I say, I have used that approach extensively, so do have some idea what your training will be like). Main thing is, be patient and figure on three-to-four months as a reasonable block of time to invest before obvious results start to show up. But they will, if you keep at it---H.I.T. is a very sound, well-supported general strategy, and believe me, if I was able to get somewhere with strength training, anyone should be able to! Again, good luck with it.
 

Jonathan Randall

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Greetings, Wim---let me give you some background on my own training program, which you may find of interest since it incorporates and extreme form of high-intensity practice. I started serious weight training just about ten years ago when I was forty-nine, and have been using the Sisco-Little `Power Factor' version---a distant cousin of Mentzer's program---for at least seven of those years. I am an ectomorph with a very fast metabolism, and while I've always been strong for my weight, that isn't saying much---well into my 30s I weighted in at around 155lbs distributed over 6'1". This general profile is good for health, but it usually means that it's almost impossible to gain muscle, and that's how it was for me.

After a few years of mostly unfocused training I came across the Sisco/Little books. Their approach seemed eminently sensible to me, based as it is on well-documented facts about neuromuscular function and activity. Their reasoning works this way:

* Both in vivo (muscle biopsy) and electrovoltaic measurement experiments strongly suggest that the body will activate just enough neuromuscular motor units as are needed to move a given weight;

*if the weight exceeds the combined ability of all available motor units to move it, the latter will stop firing;

*if the weight falls within the already existent abilities of the body to shift it, then no more motor units will be called on no matter how many times you shift the weight, i.e., reps at the ability you already have do not increase the number of units you recruit for the exercise;

*muscle growth is proportional to the number of motor units that are called upon to move the weights you use in your exercise.

What this means is, the heavier you lift, the more of the available motor units you recruit, and the more muscle growth you experience. But your ability to lift is not determined purely by your musculature; skeletal leverage plays a crucial role too. Everyone performing a bench press, for example, reaches a point when if they drop the weight any further, they'll never get it back up again. If you confine your weights to what you can lift over a full range of motion, you will be unable to lift the much heavier weights you can lift for shorter-length reps in the zone where your leverage factors are optimal.

Sisco and Little therefore advocate the following:

(i) train max weights over short reps in your strongest leverage range.

(ii) for pressing exercises, this means you need to use a power rack. Typically, lifting 3'" reps instead of 12" reps adds another 100lbs or so to your bench press right off the bat.

(iii) your goal is to add 5% to your weights each training session and do the same number of reps in the same time frame, or shorter (power = force divided by time).

(iv) you must absolutely recover fully for this program to work, which meant, for me, that after a couple of years on it I was doing 405lb bench presses over about an inch of quite rapid reps, once every three weeks to a month or more.

Over the seven years I did this I added probably 25 lbs of muscle, judging from my weight and bodyfat composition. That's a substantial gain, so that though no one will every confuse me with one of Weider's steroid-bloated titans, I have more than enough strength for most MA purposes, and am way quicker as well. As a result of this experience I'm quite convinced that high-intensity is a viable, efficient system. Furthermore, the facts about neuroanatomy that it's predicated on are not subject to individual variation---Sisco & Little's research showed that the correlation between % of motor units recruited, muscle growth, and the all-or-nothing property of motor unit recruitment hold generally, that it's the result of basic properties of how it is that neuron bundles and muscle tissue interact. So I'm inclined to thing that high intensity will work effectively for you if you work at it consistently. Once you get started, work out no more than twice a week. At one point, if you're doing high intensity right, you'll find this is too frequent and will have to drop to once a week, then twice a month... the fact is, it can take the body a week to ten days to recover from a major high intensity work out, and that still doesn't take into account the `growth' phase, just the recovery phase. As I say, I got to the point where if I worked the either of the two muscle groups I train together more than onece every three weeks, it hurt my performance next time, in a very obvious way. Back off, and the numbers improve again.

I broke the exercises down as follows:

Group 1: Chest (weighted dips and power-rack bench press), biceps (weighted palm-inward chins) and quads (leg press machine), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six weeks.

Group 2: Shoulders (seated power-rack presses), lats (weighted palm-outward chins), triceps (weighted dips), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six week alternating with Group 1.

So I'm exercising weights every 2-3 weeks.

I train each group for a total of no more than about forty-five minutes each session. I would try the Mentzer version---it differs from the Sisco/Little approach in several ways, and I find the latter more plausible in its assumptions than Mentzer's story---but I've no doubt that if you use a consistent and relatively infrequent application of the HI approach, you will notice very serious strength gains, and you'll look markedly more muscular. Good luck on your program!


Thanks for the great information.

BTW, I often train with lighter weights and much greater repetitions in order to build stamina rather then make spectacular strength gains. In fact, I only have about 2-3 serious maximum weight, minimum reps. per month. I found that doing lighter weights longer and more often had a greater benefit (feeling and being fit) to my SPECIFIC body than doing heavy weights. Thoughts!
 

exile

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BTW, I often train with lighter weights and much greater repetitions in order to build stamina rather then make spectacular strength gains. In fact, I only have about 2-3 serious maximum weight, minimum reps. per month. I found that doing lighter weights longer and more often had a greater benefit (feeling and being fit) to my SPECIFIC body than doing heavy weights. Thoughts!

There's plenty of good things to be said about building stamina---this is true for the MAs in particular, I think. Look at any MA which emphasizes patterns as records of combat techniques, like karate, TKD, various CMAs etc---especially the latter: there are literally dozens of moves you have to make to get through some of the advanced patterns, and often you wind up going on through four or five or more in a row, with minimal breaks in the middle. Without a healthy dose of endurance training, you're going to be gasping for air halfway through, if you do those patterns `all out', the way we're expected to do at my dojang. My own emphasis on the strength/power side is a strictly personal take on the desiderata of strength training---probably due to my persistent sense of physical weakness and vulnerability when I was a kid, long, long, ....long ago... and these things do get ingrained. But endurance, stamina and so on are definitely the other side the coin. Five minutes' intense sparring will convince anyone of that! My feeling is, endurance is just as important as anything else. It's just that for me, that `anything else' (strength/power) has been particularly difficult to acquire, because of my body type and genetics....
 

Jonathan Randall

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There's plenty of good things to be said about building stamina---this is true for the MAs in particular, I think. Look at any MA which emphasizes patterns as records of combat techniques, like karate, TKD, various CMAs etc---especially the latter: there are literally dozens of moves you have to make to get through some of the advanced patterns, and often you wind up going on through four or five or more in a row, with minimal breaks in the middle. Without a healthy dose of endurance training, you're going to be gasping for air halfway through, if you do those patterns `all out', the way we're expected to do at my dojang. My own emphasis on the strength/power side is a strictly personal take on the desiderata of strength training---probably due to my persistent sense of physical weakness and vulnerability when I was a kid, long, long, ....long ago... and these things do get ingrained. But endurance, stamina and so on are definitely the other side the coin. Five minutes' intense sparring will convince anyone of that! My feeling is, endurance is just as important as anything else. It's just that for me, that `anything else' (strength/power) has been particularly difficult to acquire, because of my body type and genetics....

I get you. We're actually on the same page. Part of the reason I don't train heavy weights is the effect of a hereditary disc disorder complicated by a serious automobile accident. However; given that even 45 minutes once a week of resistance training will serously improve a person's strength and endurance as compared to their not lifting, I think it's almost a no-brainer for the martial artist.

I know what you mean about forms and strength. Try doing any of the Heians with correct posture for any period of time! Just as you say - the unconditioned person would be gasping for breath and breaking their stances and losing their finesse.
 

Hand Sword

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CuongNhuka

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so, what is brook rubick dinosaur training? although yes i do HIT, and i do split training...sorta. exept i only do body weight exercises. sit ups, push ups, body weight squats, running, that sorta thing.
all-in-all, there is no right answer as for me:
Monday: lower body
Teusday Cuong Nhu
Wednesday: off
Thursday: upper body
Friday: Cuong Nhu (ohhh, sparring day)
Saturday: combined upper and lower
Sunday: Iron body

I only call my sunday work out "Iron Body" for lack of a better term. I do weight training for both upper and lower body, Wing Chun hand drills, Filipino hand drills, more karate, hit my bag, and do training for board breaking. I have a karate class on sunday, so get home and lift weights, and do anything that wasn't covered in class.
have fun, and welcome
 

Flying Crane

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I personally hate any kind of weight training, and always end up quitting if I start a program.

Instead, I just work in a few sets of pushups of various types, situps, and some arm curls to supplement my martial arts training. You can do a couple or three or so sets of each at the end of each training session. Gradually increase reps, and weight for the curls. It only takes 10 minutes or less, depending on how much you feel like doing.

This will not build lots of muscle mass, but it will help to tone muscles and will improve your overall strength. It's gradual and more subtle, but I find it works well for me. And the small time committment to do it is something that I can stick with. I just don't have the time nor the desire to spend an hour at a time, 3 times a week, lifting weights.
 

PeaceWarrior

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All of this sounds *great!*, however dont neglect

*Horse stance*
Bow and arrow stance

Static "poses" like these actually become dynamic relationships (you and the earth/your opponent) after a while. Try to hold them for as long as you can (make sure you are using proper form), and eventually you will feel comfortable sinking into the earth, all while developing a special kind of strength in your legs and your center.

Also may I suggest that true power comes not only from the muscles but from the earth itself. Just something to ponder.

I know you asked about weight training specifically, but I wanted to add that. :)

Peace!

Keith
 

matt.m

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Greetings, Wim---let me give you some background on my own training program, which you may find of interest since it incorporates and extreme form of high-intensity practice. I started serious weight training just about ten years ago when I was forty-nine, and have been using the Sisco-Little `Power Factor' version---a distant cousin of Mentzer's program---for at least seven of those years. I am an ectomorph with a very fast metabolism, and while I've always been strong for my weight, that isn't saying much---well into my 30s I weighted in at around 155lbs distributed over 6'1". This general profile is good for health, but it usually means that it's almost impossible to gain muscle, and that's how it was for me.

After a few years of mostly unfocused training I came across the Sisco/Little books. Their approach seemed eminently sensible to me, based as it is on well-documented facts about neuromuscular function and activity. Their reasoning works this way:

* Both in vivo (muscle biopsy) and electrovoltaic measurement experiments strongly suggest that the body will activate just enough neuromuscular motor units as are needed to move a given weight;

*if the weight exceeds the combined ability of all available motor units to move it, the latter will stop firing;

*if the weight falls within the already existent abilities of the body to shift it, then no more motor units will be called on no matter how many times you shift the weight, i.e., reps at the ability you already have do not increase the number of units you recruit for the exercise;

*muscle growth is proportional to the number of motor units that are called upon to move the weights you use in your exercise.

What this means is, the heavier you lift, the more of the available motor units you recruit, and the more muscle growth you experience. But your ability to lift is not determined purely by your musculature; skeletal leverage plays a crucial role too. Everyone performing a bench press, for example, reaches a point when if they drop the weight any further, they'll never get it back up again. If you confine your weights to what you can lift over a full range of motion, you will be unable to lift the much heavier weights you can lift for shorter-length reps in the zone where your leverage factors are optimal.

Sisco and Little therefore advocate the following:

(i) train max weights over short reps in your strongest leverage range.

(ii) for pressing exercises, this means you need to use a power rack. Typically, lifting 3'" reps instead of 12" reps adds another 100lbs or so to your bench press right off the bat.

(iii) your goal is to add 5% to your weights each training session and do the same number of reps in the same time frame, or shorter (power = force divided by time).

(iv) you must absolutely recover fully for this program to work, which meant, for me, that after a couple of years on it I was doing 405lb bench presses over about an inch of quite rapid reps, once every three weeks to a month or more.

Over the seven years I did this I added probably 25 lbs of muscle, judging from my weight and bodyfat composition. That's a substantial gain, so that though no one will every confuse me with one of Weider's steroid-bloated titans, I have more than enough strength for most MA purposes, and am way quicker as well. As a result of this experience I'm quite convinced that high-intensity is a viable, efficient system. Furthermore, the facts about neuroanatomy that it's predicated on are not subject to individual variation---Sisco & Little's research showed that the correlation between % of motor units recruited, muscle growth, and the all-or-nothing property of motor unit recruitment hold generally, that it's the result of basic properties of how it is that neuron bundles and muscle tissue interact. So I'm inclined to thing that high intensity will work effectively for you if you work at it consistently. Once you get started, work out no more than twice a week. At one point, if you're doing high intensity right, you'll find this is too frequent and will have to drop to once a week, then twice a month... the fact is, it can take the body a week to ten days to recover from a major high intensity work out, and that still doesn't take into account the `growth' phase, just the recovery phase. As I say, I got to the point where if I worked the either of the two muscle groups I train together more than onece every three weeks, it hurt my performance next time, in a very obvious way. Back off, and the numbers improve again.

I broke the exercises down as follows:

Group 1: Chest (weighted dips and power-rack bench press), biceps (weighted palm-inward chins) and quads (leg press machine), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six weeks.

Group 2: Shoulders (seated power-rack presses), lats (weighted palm-outward chins), triceps (weighted dips), abs (weighted crunches); every four-six week alternating with Group 1.

So I'm exercising weights every 2-3 weeks.

I train each group for a total of no more than about forty-five minutes each session. I would try the Mentzer version---it differs from the Sisco/Little approach in several ways, and I find the latter more plausible in its assumptions than Mentzer's story---but I've no doubt that if you use a consistent and relatively infrequent application of the HI approach, you will notice very serious strength gains, and you'll look markedly more muscular. Good luck on your program!

The old Power Factor training is great. Did a little of the stuff to help blast past plataus. However, I have never met anyone that could handle it for long periods of time.
 

exile

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The old Power Factor training is great. Did a little of the stuff to help blast past plataus. However, I have never met anyone that could handle it for long periods of time.

Well, you done met one now, Matt! :) I've been doing it for severn years... but I have a theory about why a lot of people don't stick with it: it's one or both of two different problems---(i) they get tired of carrying out the power-factor calculations, or (ii) they don't take Sisco and Little seriously enough about long recovery periods. When I first started I had a problem with (ii) myself, but eventually I was able to persuade myself that yeah, if I need a month to recover from a very heavy iron workout, so be it. And my numbers went up steadily over all that time (until I kind of lost a year as a result of a very stupid training accident). As far as (i) goes... I eventually decided that really, the thing to do was just keep track of my reps and duplicate or exceed them, while duplicating the time for each of the exercises from last time or decrease them. Figuring out just what the power factor was really wasn't important as long as the weights X reps were the same or greater and the time was lower. In practice, I'd add 5 to 10lbs to every exercise and try to shave a couple of seconds off each of the fairly few sets I did for each of the (fairly few) excercise types I did.

I agree, though, that even if you don't do the whole power factor thing consistently---and there were a lot of days when I was tempted not to, because sometimes the iron at those weights is, like, really intimidating---if you run into a plateau, there's nothing like it for getting through.

Nice to know that someone else on MT knows about the Sisco-Little system---most people, if you mention it, just give you this totally blank look...
 
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wim

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Again, thank you all for reacting.
Exile, I will mail you but I dont have your emailadress.
The problem with weighttraining for me to is that I get bored after some time.
Maybay it is because its my supplement training. I like training martial arts much more, but I know you have to train you strength to.
I have the book Power Factor training but the greatest problem for me is that most off the time you need a spotter. But I train alone at my home.
Dinosaur training is a very good book with good exercises and they are not complicated. You have only two workouts a week with different exercises.

Crossit is good to but I dont like the WOD's always because sometimes you have to do 100 pull-ups or something like that.
I know that you have to work up to this but still.
 
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