Stopping a junior immediately or wait till they've finished?

[Daniel Sullivan]

The front kick to a horizontal paddle is a very common drill. To me, it is a warm up for roundhouse kick, as opposed to being a front kick exercise. If it were me, I would have let it go at the time, because no one was in any immediate danger from doing that, and I would have discussed it with him afterwards.

When you have students do that drill do you have them kicking with the points of their toes? I believe that that was the issue, not the drill itself.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

When you have students do that drill do you have them kicking with the points of their toes? I believe that that was the issue, not the drill itself.

I don't necessarily take that interpretation. Andy said this: "the exercise in question was simply doing front kicks with the foot/toes completely pointed, kicking a horizontal paddle."

Any kind of front kick, whether with the instep or the ball of the foot, requires you to point or pull the toes either back OR forward if you're not planning to strike with the toes themselves (unlikely if you're doing a Korean MA). A scoop kick with the instep has you point the toes down, which is likely the opposite of what most people want for the ball front kick.

Andy doesn't specify what direction the toes are pointed in. We need more information to know if the toe position is actually bad for the horizontal paddle drill or not. He is clear however that he doesn't like what the other BB was teaching/permitting and that is his prerogative.

 

[puunui]

When you have students do that drill do you have them kicking with the points of their toes? I believe that that was the issue, not the drill itself.

In Sinmoo Hapkido, Basic Kick #2 is done like that, front kick with the toe. The target areas are pressure points along the outside of your opponent's leg. I believe this comes from GM CHOI Yong Sul, who I saw do this kick once in a videotape from GM Mike Wollmershauser.

 

[puunui]

I know it as a scoop kick. It's used in many different systems to strike the groin or inner thigh area. Sometimes even WITH the toes if the style conditions them as a striking weapon.

Just my personal preference, but I am not into kicking my opponent's groin, even in a self defense situation. Not into breaking or harming joints either.

 

[dancingalone]

Just my personal preference, but I am not into kicking my opponent's groin, even in a self defense situation. Not into breaking or harming joints either.

You're a gentleman and a scholar!

 

[puunui]

You're a gentleman and a scholar!

I was always taught that we do not wish to injure our opponents or even our training partners permanently. Kicking someone in the groin or breaking someone's joints are things we do not do. One of my seniors had a student who was kicked in the groin during sparring. His testicles got tangled up somehow and he ended up losing one. You don't want someone out there hating you for the rest of their lives because you did something that caused them permanent lifetime physical pain and injury. You break someone's elbow or wrist and when they get arthritis in that joint when they are senior citizens, they will remember you negatively.

 

[dancingalone]

I was always taught that we do not wish to injure our opponents or even our training partners permanently.

I've trained with some Korean high rankers and I've noticed striking the face in sparring was sometimes a faux pas in their classes. Aside from the injury issue, it was explained that kicking or even punching the face was a grave insult culturally.

Not sure if that is true or not but I thought I would share the story. Incidentally, my Okinawan teacher thinks nothing of the face as a target. Fair game to him.

 

[andyjeffries]

Then if he was there should you have not brought that to his attention?

Over the years we've built up a relationship that I don't need to tell him every little thing I deal with (and as much as this was a frustrating/irritating event it was minor/quick). I didn't mention it today in a big way, just in passing in the middle of an email.

As far as I'm concerned (and I'm 99% sure my instructor will agree) it's dealt with and he doesn't need to get involved. If the senior black belt tries to ignore an instruction from me again I'm 99% sure my instructor will want to get involved ;-)

Sorry did not know you have been with him for 22 years that makes a big difference in my comment, you would have every right to correct him.

I've been at the club for 26 years, the first few years under my grandmaster then he handed the school over to my master and I've been under him for 22-23 years. That's why the master trusts me to deal with these issues, run the class in his absence, etc.

If this BB does not grade with your school then how is he able to teach your school proper techniques since he is really under another instructor.

Indeed, that's why he "helps out" rather than teaches a class...

I can agree with the above post, I guess I missed it when you said he was from another school and just working out with you guys. If this BB is going to help instruct he needs to follow the school way of doing certain things. I am fortunite to have BB that will come to meeting and help put together new and exciting things inside of our school.

Absolutely, that's my problem. If I happen to teach at another club, I'll happily not correct people if they are doing things the way the instructor wants them to do it.

I will add this that after being informed of certain things by your previous post you had every right to stop and corect him on the floor, he was not following the head instructor way of teaching certain techs and not remembering this is not his old school but the one he has choosen to be at for this time period.

Thank you.

 

[andyjeffries]

If there's a clear rank order on the floor, and you're the senior person, then IMO there shouldn't be any talk-back when you give an instruction. You over-rule him, plain and simple. By contradicting you, he undermines your authority and seniority. If he has issues with the instructions, then he should approach you after class to ask what he was doing wrong and why you changed it (not the other way around).

That's the way I've been taught as well. There has been times when I've been overruled in the past and it's irritating, but I wouldn't dream of talking back to the senior grade.

I think this student could use some more lessons in flexibility, and needs a little help getting his ego under control if he gets offended this easily.

Maybe ego has something to do with it. He went through a period just after getting his current grade where he suddenly felt like he'd earned the right to wander out of position during line drills to correct other students. I corrected him on that one quick smart... I don't do it when my master is teaching, I don't expect him to do it when I'm teaching.

 

[andyjeffries]

I would have called out to the kids, 'pull back your toes and kick with the ball of your foot' and been done with it.

Apparently, however, this has been an ongoing thing, so after class, I would have pulled him aside and said, 'make sure that they pull their toes back when kicking paddles; kids going home with broken toes is something we want to avoid.'

It was the adults in my class, but the point remains.

You said in a later post that he is an "external blackbelt." What do you mean by that? Was he a blackbelt from another school? If that is the case, let him know that at this school, we do not kick that way.

You are correct. He trained at another club, got his black belt at the club (coincidentally from my Grandmaster who travelled to that club to grade some students). His subsequent dan grades are again from that club. He trains with us during the week and tends to go back home most weekends where he trains with his home club.

In this case, as I mentioned, he has been told in the past that we don't kick that way - hence this time it was time to put an immediate stop to it.

Either way, you were in the right. If he didn't want you calling him on the carpet in class, he should have conducted the drill correctly, the way that he'd already been told.

Thank you.

 

[andyjeffries]

The front kick to a horizontal paddle is a very common drill. To me, it is a warm up for roundhouse kick, as opposed to being a front kick exercise. If it were me, I would have let it go at the time, because no one was in any immediate danger from doing that, and I would have discussed it with him afterwards.

I agree there was no immediate danger, but we've had issues in the past with people front kicking in this style against a vertically held power shield - this senior black belt in question is one of them. As the class was mostly filled with black belts I didn't want them teaching others to do it if they are running paddle drills in the future, otherwise 3 months down the line I have another "mistake" to correct.

I'm aware other clubs do this drill and I wish them all the best with it, but we don't and he was knew that. That's why I only put the specific item at the end of the post; I know some people do it but it wasn't about that specific exercise.

Your situation is a little different because you both are assistant instructors, as opposed to one of you being the chief instructor. How does the chief instructor feel about that particular drill?

The same as me, bad idea, bad habit to get in to.

if he feels like you do, then perhaps a meeting between the three of you will solve it.

He does, but as I said, we're unlikely to need a meeting as he trusts my judgement in dealing with these issues and it's dealt with for now (unless either the drill or back-talk comes back).

 

[puunui]

I've trained with some Korean high rankers and I've noticed striking the face in sparring was sometimes a faux pas in their classes. Aside from the injury issue, it was explained that kicking or even punching the face was a grave insult culturally.

I was told that the reason why people don't punch others with their hands in Korea is because the hand was seen as the way your earn your living. If you broke your hand, you couldn't work and therefore couldn't support your family. That was the cultural explanation given to me as to why Koreans kick and deemphasized punches. As for insults, one of the pioneers was known for slapping juniors or students hard in the face if he felt that junior or student did something wrong.

 

[andyjeffries]

Andy doesn't specify what direction the toes are pointed in. We need more information to know if the toe position is actually bad for the horizontal paddle drill or not. He is clear however that he doesn't like what the other BB was teaching/permitting and that is his prerogative.

As I said though, it's not about the drill per se (as I know some consider it perfectly valid and that's their prerogative) - it was about whether immediately stopping someone is a valid thing to do if you disagree with the technique being performed. And I guess the follow on from that is - is it still valid if you aren't the head instructor, but are the senior grade in charge of that class at the time (i.e. a stand in for the head instructor).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't necessarily take that interpretation. Andy said this: "the exercise in question was simply doing front kicks with the foot/toes completely pointed, kicking a horizontal paddle."

Any kind of front kick, whether with the instep or the ball of the foot, requires you to point or pull the toes either back OR forward if you're not planning to strike with the toes themselves (unlikely if you're doing a Korean MA). A scoop kick with the instep has you point the toes down, which is likely the opposite of what most people want for the ball front kick.

Andy doesn't specify what direction the toes are pointed in.

True, he didn't, though it was toe direction that is the issue. I'm not saying that it is safe or unsafe; I was just curious as to how Glenn performed the drill.

Daniel

 

[wayneshin]

As I said though, it's not about the drill per se (as I know some consider it perfectly valid and that's their prerogative) - it was about whether immediately stopping someone is a valid thing to do if you disagree with the technique being performed. And I guess the follow on from that is - is it still valid if you aren't the head instructor, but are the senior grade in charge of that class at the time (i.e. a stand in for the head instructor).

I also find this a challenge. It is a fine line to tread between supporting your Instructors publicly and ensuring they are not teaching things incorreclty.

Where practical I try to have those discussions after the classs. It is vitally important that students have confidence in their Instructor. If there is an immediate safety issue it is a different matter. I currently have an ongoing challenge with a number of my Instructors who persist in including static stretching as part of warm ups despite my many instructions that warm up stretching should alway be dynamic.

 

[puunui]

I currently have an ongoing challenge with a number of my Instructors who persist in including static stretching as part of warm ups despite my many instructions that warm up stretching should alway be dynamic.

What do you mean by this? No static stretching in your class? What in your view is the difference between static and dynamic stretching?

 

[andyjeffries]

What do you mean by this? No static stretching in your class? What in your view is the difference between static and dynamic stretching?

I agree with Wayneshin so I'll answer to. However, before I do, this is a good example where the school way is static stretching and our Master prefers including static stretching so I have students do it rather than disobey they school way.

Static stretching is things like sitting on the floor with one leg straight, the other pulled in to your groin in a half butterfly stretch and putting your head to the front knee. Or sitting with your legs apart and slowly holding your head as near to each knee (and then the centre) as you can. Holding it for a 5-8 seconds in each position.

An example of dynamic stretching are leg raises in different directions.

The distinction is made clear in Dr Tom Kurz's book Stretching Scientifically, where he also goes on to show (with lots of references to scientific research) that static stretching is useless unless your sport demands it (maybe gymnastics) and has a detrimental effect (as it anaesthetises your muscles causing them to not respond optimally for a period afterwards and risking damage because they are anaesthetised).

When we're warming ourselves up, I purely do a dynamic and static active warm-up. On non-Taekwondo days I'll do isometric stretches to increase my maximum flexibility, the dynamic warm-up helps me make the most use of my maximum flexibility.

My grandmaster followed Tom Kurz's methods for about a month and achieved great results (having done mainly static stretches for all his Taekwondo life). It's amazing the difference knowing how to stretch properly can make. My warm-ups are faster than others doing static stretching (and mine doing the same) and I have no side effects (as if the muscles weren't warmed up properly).

 

[jks9199]

There is some research that static stretching pre-training/workout can destabilize the joints and lead to injury. There are a few threads about this elsewhere. As I recall, the results have suggested that some static stretches AFTER training can be beneficial.

 

[wayneshin]

There is some research that static stretching pre-training/workout can destabilize the joints and lead to injury. There are a few threads about this elsewhere. As I recall, the results have suggested that some static stretches AFTER training can be beneficial.

THIS is what I mean.

 

[andyjeffries]

Just as an update, I spoke to my master about this tonight. He feels I was completely in the right and would definitely have also stopped him there and then. He asked if he wanted me to bring it up with the senior black belt to ensure he's clear, but I said that there was no need, it's been dealt with.

We were the same grade for a while (I'd been there a long while, he recently joined me), so my master thinks it might be that since I've been promoted above him (although I would have done exactly the same thing when we were the same grade and my master agrees that I would have done and would still have been correct to do it) so that's put his back out - he thinks now I'm a higher dan, I'm pulling rank. We both just speculating though...

There's also a bit of attitude in the class from some people that the only person whose opinion matters is the master's. He is glad I handled it the way I did, because hopefully people will learn to start respecting the hierarchy more rather than just the top dog. Again, he was happy to clarify this to the class, but as I'm putting my own stamp/authority in he doesn't want to have to tell people that because he wants me to do it without being seen to need his back-up (which defeats the purpose).

So all in all, thanks everyone for your interesting opinions - in my master's eyes I acted correctly and most people here seem to agree so I'm happy that I didn't commit a major faux pas!