Stopping a junior immediately or wait till they've finished?

[andyjeffries]

Tonight while the adult class was warming themselves up (we're generally all black belts, one long term blue tag) I was helping one child prepare for her grading. One of the senior black belts (I've a higher rank) started getting the others doing some paddle work. I have no problem with that, it got them busy while I was finishing up with the child.

However, the senior black belt was having them do an exercise I disagree with (and have mentioned to him in the past) for the reason that in my/our opinion it causes bad habits that are potentially dangerous habits, so I stopped the group by saying "No, no, no - don't do that one" and he then proceeded to say "no, carry on group, we'll go on to another one in a minute" at which point I was firmer and clarified that the group was to stop and do something else and agreed to discuss it with the senior black belt privately later. The group then went on to another exercise and the senior black belt quietly fumed.

After the lesson I discussed it with the senior black belt and he said that I was absolutely in the wrong to stop him when he was in the middle of "instruction" and I should respect his teaching methods and bring it up with him after class. I said that if I saw someone teaching something that I consider to potentially cause bad habits or be dangerous that I would stop them there and then and then discuss the reasons privately (or publicly if they ask me there and then).

He asked me how I would feel if it happened to me - and I replied quite honestly that I would probably also feel like the rug had been pulled out from under me but a)it has previously happened to me and b)it turned out that the senior grade was quite correct. I would also hope that if I did it again in the future, that a senior grade would immediately correct me.

What are your thoughts? Would you do the same (stop them immediately) or let them continue to the end and tell them at the end of the lesson? Do you feel I acted properly or improperly.

To clarify, at no point did I insult the senior black belt (claiming his methods were useless or any such thing) and just wanted/instructed him to do another exercise.

In case anyone thinks it's relevant (although I'm interested in general answers based on principle rather than on this specific exercise) - the exercise in question was simply doing front kicks with the foot/toes completely pointed, kicking a horizontal paddle. We disagree with this because it often causes people to get used to kicking this way and we have to correct it to toes pulled back for poomsae and when kicking power shields. IMHO, it's a bad habit to get in to as it leads to toe injuries during our fairly regular power work.

As an aside, the senior black belt in question doesn't perform front kicks very hard on power shields because it generally hurts his toes ;-)

 

[dancingalone]

You don't practice/utilize scoop kicks to the groin? I don't completely understand what toes 'pointed' means but I do use a horizontal paddle as a kicking surface for the scoop kick from time to time.

But the main point I think is you are asking if it was OK for you to disregard your instructor's instructions on the class form when he apparently was directing the class. If that is the case, then I do think you were in the wrong. There can only be 1 chief instructor on the floor at any given point. If you disagree with his methods, the time for your input would be off the mats in private with him, even if he is your junior. If you want to control the class, then take it and lead it. It's a bad idea in my book to correct or interfere from the peanut gallery if he is considered a full-fledged instructor in his own right.

 

[andyjeffries]

You don't practice/utilize scoop kicks to the groin? I don't completely understand what toes 'pointed' means but I do use a horizontal paddle as a kicking surface for the scoop kick from time to time.

Nope, we never do this, it's something we explicitly don't do. However, as you say next...

But the main point I think is you are asking if it was OK for you to disregard your instructor's instructions on the class form when he apparently was directing the class. If that is the case, then I do think you were in the wrong. There can only be 1 chief instructor on the floor at any given point. If you disagree with his methods, the time for your input would be off the mats in private with him, even if he is your junior. If you want to control the class, then take it and lead it. It's a bad idea in my book to correct or interfere from the peanut gallery if he is considered a full-fledged instructor in his own right.

Sorry, I've obviously missed explaining something. I was the chief instructor of the adult class during this time. I was occupied while the adults warmed up and he took it upon himself to organise a group activity during the time I had allocated to their wam-up. I gave implicit consent to that paddle work by not stopping him, but he wasn't in charge of the class.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't stop a junior student unless what is being done is an immediate danger. i will pull them aside later and tell them I would like it if they did not do that particular thing again. If the drill is something I think puts someone in danger I will stop what they are doing and ask the class to take a break or go to another drill. While they are doing that, I will address the issue quietly and in private with the junior. If the drill is something I have asked them not to do before then I will stop it and address the issue publicly, making a point that I have asked that particular drill not be practiced and why is it being done now.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would have gone up to the instructor and told him in a manner so that no one else could hear. "I am in charge right now and if I tell you to do something I expect that instruction to be followed immediately."

Absent an immediate threat of danger or injury I would not tell him in a manner causing him to lose face with students.

 

[dancingalone]

Sorry, I've obviously missed explaining something. I was the chief instructor of the adult class during this time. I was occupied while the adults warmed up and he took it upon himself to organise a group activity during the time I had allocated to their wam-up. I gave implicit consent to that paddle work by not stopping him, but he wasn't in charge of the class.

Then he should have followed your directions and if he overstepped boundaries in a defiant fashion, then you were correct to interject publicly. For harmony's sake, a rebuke should be made in privacy, but you gotta do what you've gotta do.

I'm sure you are aware and sensitive about the need for black belts to gain or save face, particularly if they are interested in higher roles at the dojang.

 

[Sukerkin]

There are ways of doing the necessary thing that get the message across without anyone having to lose face (other than perhaps in their own eyes).

I have had sensei do that for me before now when I have been putting some aspect of swordwork across in a way that was not quite right. He hasn't made me look stupid in front of the class but has gotten his point across to them and, more importantly, to me . I might have blushed inside with the realisation that I had messed up but I also learned; which is the really important thing.

 

[jks9199]

One tactic you can use in a situation like that is to correct the exercise rather than the instructor. So, with the exercise you described, a script kind of like this:

"Good job, guys. Thanks, Mr Blackbelt, for getting them going... that's a great drill -- but I want you all to be sure to pull the toes back when you kick so you don't build a bad habit!"

 

[Sukerkin]

Precisely the point I was making :tup:.

 

[andyjeffries]

If the drill is something I have asked them not to do before then I will stop it and address the issue publicly, making a point that I have asked that particular drill not be practiced and why is it being done now.

That's the situation, but I was going in between your answer and the others. I had told him about it before and therefore addressed this time publicly. However, what may not have come across is my tone of voice. I didn't say it in an aggressive tone, just in a stop doing that and do a different one (let's just move passed this exercise) type of way.

Only when he bit back and tried to get the group to go against my wishes and do as they were told did my tone of voice change to a more commanding one.

 

[andyjeffries]

Then he should have followed your directions and if he overstepped boundaries in a defiant fashion, then you were correct to interject publicly. For harmony's sake, a rebuke should be made in privacy, but you gotta do what you've gotta do.

That's kind of what happened, I gave a direction, he argued against it and I overruled him. Then when the class were resting, we had a private word about it.

I'm sure you are aware and sensitive about the need for black belts to gain or save face, particularly if they are interested in higher roles at the dojang.

This guy is an external black belt so I don't know if he's interested in higher roles at our dojang. I do know I've had a couple of words with him over the years about overstepping his boundaries.

 

[andyjeffries]

One tactic you can use in a situation like that is to correct the exercise rather than the instructor. So, with the exercise you described, a script kind of like this: "Good job, guys. Thanks, Mr Blackbelt, for getting them going... that's a great drill -- but I want you all to be sure to pull the toes back when you kick so you don't build a bad habit!"

That's a good way of handling it, thanks for that.

In this case though it was something we'd previously discussed and I'm sure in this case he would have still said "let's keep doing it this way for now" as that's the way he's been taught.

 

[terryl965]

There is something called common sense, when multiple blackbelts are on the floor together they must work as a team. One common instructor on the same purpose for that particular class, at no time should a BB be made to look bad in front of students. The best way to handle this was to simply say to the assistant instructor on the floor to change from paddle drills to something else and decuse this in a private enviroment.

Last thing Andy you said you was the head instructor for that class but who is the head instructor for the school? He is the one that needs to sit this BB down and explain that he want this tech to be like this, it was not your place if it was not your school. Sorrybut for any of my BB to correct something without me is just not accepted at anytime. We haveweekly meeting to insure proper techs are tought theway of my liking, if a person wants private with any of my BB to learn something they see them doing that is great for all but during any regular class time it should be done the way of the school.

 

[andyjeffries]

The best way to handle this was to simply say to the assistant instructor on the floor to change from paddle drills to something else and decuse this in a private enviroment.

I was happy that he was doing paddle drills, just not that one in particular.

Last thing Andy you said you was the head instructor for that class but who is the head instructor for the school?

Are you asking for a name or a relative explanation in this situation. For the latter, he teaches the children's class on a Tuesday night for the first hour while I teach the adults. Then I take my child home and he takes over the adults for the second hour. He was unaware of the situation until I mentioned it during an email earlier today.

He is the one that needs to sit this BB down and explain that he want this tech to be like this, it was not your place if it was not your school.

That's a fair point.

I guess I feel qualified to proxy for him in most issues though as I've trained under him for 22 years ish so I know how he wants things to be...

This other senior black belt has been training with us for a few years but takes all his gradings at his old club and still trains with them on the weekend.

By the way, senior is being used as a relative term in comparison to the other black belts at the class rather than meaning senior in comparison to me or anyone here.

Sorry but for any of my BB to correct something without me is just not accepted at anytime.

Sorry? You don't allow BB to correct people or to correct other BB? That feels very weird, in our class techniques and corrections are often handed down waterfall style, senior grades correcting those below them.

That's why in this case I corrected my junior. He obviously hasn't taken it to the Club Owner so he's either accepted my correction or feels that he will ignore it and proceed as normal next time. We'll see.

We have weekly meeting to insure proper techs are tought the way of my liking, if a person wants private with any of my BB to learn something they see them doing that is great for all but during any regular class time it should be done the way of the school.

That's the point of this though. This senior black belt wasn't doing this "the way of the school" but the way his other school does it. We aren't as lucky to have weekly meetings to discuss technique accuracy, that's why we rely on seniors correcting juniors in that hopefully the seniors know more in how it's done in "the way of the school". In this case though we've had a senior black belt join us who isn't as schooled in our our way and wants to do things his way.

As I said, we're open to new ideas, but if it's one we disagree with then I felt I had to stop it and change the exercise.

 

[terryl965]

Are you asking for a name or a relative explanation in this situation. For the latter, he teaches the children's class on a Tuesday night for the first hour while I teach the adults. Then I take my child home and he takes over the adults for the second hour. He was unaware of the situation until I mentioned it during an email earlier today.

Then if he was there should you have not brought that to his attention?

That's a fair point.

I guess I feel qualified to proxy for him in most issues though as I've trained under him for 22 years ish so I know how he wants things to be...

This other senior black belt has been training with us for a few years but takes all his gradings at his old club and still trains with them on the weekend.

By the way, senior is being used as a relative term in comparison to the other black belts at the class rather than meaning senior in comparison to me or anyone here.

Sorry did not know you have been with him for 22 years that makes a big difference in my comment, you would have every right to correct him. If this BB does not grade with your school then how is he able to teach your school proper techniques since he is really under another instructor.


Sorry? You don't allow BB to correct people or to correct other BB? That feels very weird, in our class techniques and corrections are often handed down waterfall style, senior grades correcting those below them.

I allow them to correct if they are doing it in the manner in which I teach certain techs. What I do not allow is for them to change what is being tought during regular class time, if a student wants to take some private lessons to learn certain things from another BB that is great. I want my students to understand techs and the proper way of doing them for there safety and there partners.

That's the point of this though. This senior black belt wasn't doing this "the way of the school" but the way his other school does it. We aren't as lucky to have weekly meetings to discuss technique accuracy, that's why we rely on seniors correcting juniors in that hopefully the seniors know more in how it's done in "the way of the school". In this case though we've had a senior black belt join us who isn't as schooled in our our way and wants to do things his way.

As I said, we're open to new ideas, but if it's one we disagree with then I felt I had to stop it and change the exercise

I can agree with the above post, I guess I missed it when you said he was from another school and just working out with you guys. If this BB is going to help instruct he needs to follow the school way of doing certain things. I am fortunite to have BB that will come to meeting and help put together new and exciting things inside of our school.

I will add this that after beinginformed of certain things by your previous post you had every right to stop and corect him on the floor, he was not following the head instructor way of teaching certain techs and not remembering this is not his old school but the one he has choosen to be at for this time period.

 

[Nomad]

If there's a clear rank order on the floor, and you're the senior person, then IMO there shouldn't be any talk-back when you give an instruction. You over-rule him, plain and simple. By contradicting you, he undermines your authority and seniority. If he has issues with the instructions, then he should approach you after class to ask what he was doing wrong and why you changed it (not the other way around).

In our place, that would have resulted in many pushups as a quick reminder of who's in charge. There can only be one leader at a time; senior students are there to help the highest ranking person in the class, not to take over. If I'm teaching something that a senior sees as potentially dangerous, I want him/her to step in and make corrections.

I think this student could use some more lessons in flexibility, and needs a little help getting his ego under control if he gets offended this easily.

 

[jks9199]

That's a good way of handling it, thanks for that.

In this case though it was something we'd previously discussed and I'm sure in this case he would have still said "let's keep doing it this way for now" as that's the way he's been taught.

And that's when you escalate and tell him that you're running the class, so do it your way.

I've always used a simple rule: If I'm training in someone else's "house", I do things their way. IF the training is screwed up enough or dangerous enough, I leave. I don't correct them. If necessary and appropriate, we'll discuss it in private later and correct the issues.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tonight while the adult class was warming themselves up (we're generally all black belts, one long term blue tag) I was helping one child prepare for her grading. One of the senior black belts (I've a higher rank) started getting the others doing some paddle work. I have no problem with that, it got them busy while I was finishing up with the child.

However, the senior black belt was having them do an exercise I disagree with (and have mentioned to him in the past) for the reason that in my/our opinion it causes bad habits that are potentially dangerous habits, so I stopped the group by saying "No, no, no - don't do that one" and he then proceeded to say "no, carry on group, we'll go on to another one in a minute" at which point I was firmer and clarified that the group was to stop and do something else and agreed to discuss it with the senior black belt privately later. The group then went on to another exercise and the senior black belt quietly fumed.

After the lesson I discussed it with the senior black belt and he said that I was absolutely in the wrong to stop him when he was in the middle of "instruction" and I should respect his teaching methods and bring it up with him after class. I said that if I saw someone teaching something that I consider to potentially cause bad habits or be dangerous that I would stop them there and then and then discuss the reasons privately (or publicly if they ask me there and then).

He asked me how I would feel if it happened to me - and I replied quite honestly that I would probably also feel like the rug had been pulled out from under me but a)it has previously happened to me and b)it turned out that the senior grade was quite correct. I would also hope that if I did it again in the future, that a senior grade would immediately correct me.

What are your thoughts? Would you do the same (stop them immediately) or let them continue to the end and tell them at the end of the lesson? Do you feel I acted properly or improperly.

To clarify, at no point did I insult the senior black belt (claiming his methods were useless or any such thing) and just wanted/instructed him to do another exercise.

In case anyone thinks it's relevant (although I'm interested in general answers based on principle rather than on this specific exercise) - the exercise in question was simply doing front kicks with the foot/toes completely pointed, kicking a horizontal paddle. We disagree with this because it often causes people to get used to kicking this way and we have to correct it to toes pulled back for poomsae and when kicking power shields. IMHO, it's a bad habit to get in to as it leads to toe injuries during our fairly regular power work.

As an aside, the senior black belt in question doesn't perform front kicks very hard on power shields because it generally hurts his toes ;-)

I would have called out to the kids, 'pull back your toes and kick with the ball of your foot' and been done with it.

Apparently, however, this has been an ongoing thing, so after class, I would have pulled him aside and said, 'make sure that they pull their toes back when kicking paddles; kids going home with broken toes is something we want to avoid.'

You said in a later post that he is an "external blackbelt." What do you mean by that? Was he a blackbelt from another school? If that is the case, let him know that at this school, we do not kick that way.

Either way, you were in the right. If he didn't want you calling him on the carpet in class, he should have conducted the drill correctly, the way that he'd already been told.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

The front kick to a horizontal paddle is a very common drill. To me, it is a warm up for roundhouse kick, as opposed to being a front kick exercise. If it were me, I would have let it go at the time, because no one was in any immediate danger from doing that, and I would have discussed it with him afterwards. Your situation is a little different because you both are assistant instructors, as opposed to one of you being the chief instructor. How does the chief instructor feel about that particular drill? if he feels like you do, then perhaps a meeting between the three of you will solve it.

 

[dancingalone]

The front kick to a horizontal paddle is a very common drill. To me, it is a warm up for roundhouse kick, as opposed to being a front kick exercise.

I know it as a scoop kick. It's used in many different systems to strike the groin or inner thigh area. Sometimes even WITH the toes if the style conditions them as a striking weapon.