Kwan Jang Nim Independent Schools?

[Tony49]

Do any of the independent school owners use the term Kwan Jang Nim? For example, you teach a style of the taekwondo that is the old forms (palgwaes), removed one step for Kenpo style techniques and added a solid weapons class (Doce Pares Eskrima). My understand is the Kwan Jang Nim means head of school and since there is no school out there that teaches what we teach would it be okay to use that term.

 

[andyjeffries]

Do any of the independent school owners use the term Kwan Jang Nim? For example, you teach a style of the taekwondo that is the old forms (palgwaes), removed one step for Kenpo style techniques and added a solid weapons class (Doce Pares Eskrima). My understand is the Kwan Jang Nim means head of school and since there is no school out there that teaches what we teach would it be okay to use that term.

I would agree with this usage. I'd happily use it to refer to the head of our school and we are Kukkiwon-style. It doesn't mean you are head of the style or even literally the head of one of the original major kwans, it just means you are head of the school/group.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Do any of the independent school owners use the term Kwan Jang Nim? For example, you teach a style of the taekwondo that is the old forms (palgwaes), removed one step for Kenpo style techniques and added a solid weapons class (Doce Pares Eskrima). My understand is the Kwan Jang Nim means head of school and since there is no school out there that teaches what we teach would it be okay to use that term.

Kwanjang means head of kwan. Kwan is house,hall, or family. Same Chinese character as is used in 'kan' as in Shotokan which means hall or house of Shoto.

(Edited thanks to Andy's sharp eye and superior linguistic skill )So yes, it would be acceptable. Note, you would address the kwanjang as kwanjangnim. He or she would refer to themselves as kwanjang, not as kwanjangnim.

Also of note, kwanjang means head of kwan, not grandmaster.

If you are using Korean honorifics in your school, then you have the following:
School owner: Kwanjang
Master instructor: Sabeom (same Chinese characters as in shihan)
Instructor: Kyosah (sometimes used for junior instructor)
Senior: seonbae (relative)
Junior: Hubae (relative)
Yudanja: dan holder
Mudanja: non-dan holder

The suffix, nim, can be added to any of these when referring to the person. There are other titles that can be used for instructors, so my list is not exhaustive or definitive.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Note, you would address the kwanjang as kwanjang, not kwanjangnim. You would refer to him or her as kwanjangnim, but not address them as kwanjangnim.

I don't know our relative experiences in Korean, but are you sure about this? My Korean is basic at best, but I understood from my Korean lessons (and unfortunately I don't have any of my books with me) that you would refer to them and address them as kwanjangnim, but they would refer to themselves as kwanjang.

Using this dialog as an example - Jim replies to the teacher with "선생님, 안녕하세요" - the first three characters are sonsaengnim (or teacher with an honorific -nim suffix). Jim has addressed the teacher with the -nim suffix.

From what I remember this would be offensive in Korean, to not use the suffix when speaking to someone of a higher social rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know our relative experiences in Korean, but are you sure about this? My Korean is basic at best, but I understood from my Korean lessons (and unfortunately I don't have any of my books with me) that you would refer to them and address them as kwanjangnim, but they would refer to themselves as kwanjang.

Using this dialog as an example - Jim replies to the teacher with "선생님, 안녕하세요" - the first three characters are sonsaengnim (or teacher with an honorific -nim suffix). Jim has addressed the teacher with the -nim suffix.

From what I remember this would be offensive in Korean, to not use the suffix when speaking to someone of a higher social rank.

You're correct and I have it backwards. Thanks for catching that!!

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

You're correct and I have it backwards. Thanks for catching that!!

Phew, as I said my Korean is quite basic and it was one of those moments where I am relying on beginner level knowledge to correct something someone else wrote. Going out on a limb. I was half expecting a "well, I live in Korea, I teach Korean language to Korean university students, blah, blah" roasting in response

Happy to have spotted it

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Phew, as I said my Korean is quite basic and it was one of those moments where I am relying on beginner level knowledge to correct something someone else wrote. Going out on a limb. I was half expecting a "well, I live in Korea, I teach Korean language to Korean university students, blah, blah" roasting in response

Happy to have spotted it

My Korean is basic basic, lol. Once I saw your post, I did a Homer Simpson D'oh!

Daniel

 

[Tony49]

Thanks for the response and correction. My Korean is really basic so I thought I have been using the kjn incorrectly.

 

[puunui]

Mudanja: non-dan holder

Some use the term yuguepja instead of mudanja.

 

[Tony49]

Hi guys, what do you call black belts form 1st-3rd. Are they BoSabunim or Choyginim or just Mr/Mrs. By the way, if you are 4th Dan with no school are you still a Sabunim?

 

[puunui]

Hi guys, what do you call black belts form 1st-3rd. Are they BoSabunim or Choyginim or just Mr/Mrs. By the way, if you are 4th Dan with no school are you still a Sabunim?

According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are yudanja, and 6th through 9th Dan are kodanja. Also, I think the terms you are trying to write are Sabum Nim, Bu Sabum Nim and Jokyo Nim.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hi guys, what do you call black belts form 1st-3rd. Are they BoSabunim or Choyginim or just Mr/Mrs. By the way, if you are 4th Dan with no school are you still a Sabunim?

I believe busabeomnim is simply an assistant instructor, usually second or third dan, and a jokyonim is an assistant instructor of first dan.

A sabeom is the equivallent to a shihan, and implies that you are at least fourth dan and teaching. It is an honorific, so outside of the context of an instructor at a KMA dojang, the title loses functionality.

For example, if a college professor leaves the university to do something else unrelated to teaching, he may still be a doctor due to his holding a doctorate, and his former students may call him professor such and such out of respect, but he wouldn't be called a professor in his new profession.

Likewise, I suppose that a fourth dan or higher may be called sabeomnim by virtue of their rank, but unless they are teaching, they are unlikely to be addressed as such so far as I have seen.

Daniel

 

[Tony49]

So I guess the next question is what do you guys call 1st-3rd in during class. Yudanja? and then their last name? Or do you use no titles and just call Mr./Mrs.

 

[puunui]

So I guess the next question is what do you guys call 1st-3rd in during class. Yudanja? and then their last name? Or do you use no titles and just call Mr./Mrs.

No we do not address people as yudanja. Everyone is addressed by their first names in class, including me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So I guess the next question is what do you guys call 1st-3rd in during class. Yudanja? and then their last name? Or do you use no titles and just call Mr./Mrs.

Most KMA schools have all students being addressed by first name and blackbelts maybe as Mr., Mrs., Miss, or Ms. by underbelts, and the instructor as either Mr., Mrs., Miss, or Ms. such and such, Master such and such, or just sir or maam. I have seen fourth dan and higher instructors addressed as Sabeomnim, but usually, just master (at least in my area).

Daniel

 

[Tony49]

No we do not address people as yudanja. Everyone is addressed by their first names in class, including me.

That is interesting that even you go buy first name. Is that what was set down by your instructor or being you are from Hawaii it is more of an Ohana thing? I due a style of kenpo related to Kajukenbo and my instructor is from Lani, so we talk story and play jokes on each other allot.

 

[puunui]

That is interesting that even you go buy first name. Is that what was set down by your instructor or being you are from Hawaii it is more of an Ohana thing? I due a style of kenpo related to Kajukenbo and my instructor is from Lani, so we talk story and play jokes on each other allot.

I think it is a Hawaii thing. The BJJ people here do the same thing.

 

[Rumy73]

If you are using Korean honorifics in your school, then you have the following:
School owner: Kwanjang


Daniel

A slight correction:

도주님 - That's do ju nim for those who don't read Korean and it means owner/operator of a dojang. This is a correct term of respect for someone running a Korean martial arts school.

Whereas, kwan jang nim is reserved for the head of the martial art style.

The misuse is understandable. Korean is not the easiest language for Westerners to grasp.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A slight correction:

도주님 - That's do ju nim for those who don't read Korean and it means owner/operator of a dojang. This is a correct term of respect for someone running a Korean martial arts school.

Whereas, kwan jang nim is reserved for the head of the martial art style.

The misuse is understandable. Korean is not the easiest language for Westerners to grasp.

I always thought dojunim meant 'keeper of the way' and used to address the founder.

Every referrence that I have seen refers to kwan jang as the owner/operator of the school itself.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

I always thought dojunim meant 'keeper of the way' and used to address the founder.

I agree with this, GM Ji Han Jae uses the title dojunim AFAIK (I'm sure Puunui will be able to confirm/correct this).

Every referrence that I have seen refers to kwan jang as the owner/operator of the school itself.

That is the same as I've seen.