Stances and their real world uses

[GojuTommy]

Watching this, we basically have Mike doing zenkustu dachi,
And I definitely see a lot of people in karate struggling to understand how to actually work their stances into real world usage, and head movement has been my theory about the actual usage of stances for a while now.

 

[J. Pickard]

Stances are practiced in kihon and kata in a static way to learn very specific concepts but stances are not static in practice. If you take a fight between two trained fighters and watch it frame by frame you would be surprised how frequently they look like they are using "traditional" stances.

 

[GojuTommy]

Stances are practiced in kihon and kata in a static way to learn very specific concepts but stances are not static in practice. If you take a fight between two trained fighters and watch it frame by frame you would be surprised how frequently they look like they are using "traditional" stances.

I am well aware of that, and in my experience even in a dojo that did continuous contact sparring the way we trained, and the way we fought had a massive disconnect.

Unfortunately learning to fight isn’t like in karate kid 1, where you do something a lot with no clue how it pertains to fighting and then suddenly you’re able to do it.
Karate schools need to close that gap.

My favorite thing is the people who would say “oh that’s not even remotely close to any karate stances!” Lol

 

[wab25]

What's wrong with the real world use for stances being a training tool? That is their best real world use. Used as a training tool, they have a lot to teach.

At the beginning, many people have to learn how to walk... literally. Ever watch people rock side to side with their entire body, in order to take a step? Or people that lean forward, and use their legs and feet to keep them up as they fall forward? Many people come up with ways to walk, that do not articulate the hips, knees, and ankles in an efficient manor. Stance work forces you to walk in a different way, if you have one of these less efficient types of walks. This alone can make you better at fighting....

Stances teach rooting, balance, structure, power generation, movement, turning.... at the basic level. Then they teach how to move while keeping that balance. How to lunge, without over extending. Once we have learned how to generate the power, it teaches us how to put that power into our hands and feet, in different directions. It teaches us how to move your body... In order for this punch to produce power in that direction, I have to adjust my body....

I don't believe that most stances are meant to actually fight from. I think that they are exaggerations, that were designed to allow us to focus on small details found with in a normal fighting stance. By getting low, and wide and big... you have to get the details right in order to make the move you want to make. Take the walking example from before. At a normal stance, it is easy to rock to the side, so that your other foot comes off the ground, so you can fling it forward. You can just move your head to the side to shift the balance when you step, instead of moving your hips. Now, when you get into a low, wide karate stance... you can not lean to the side enough to pick your foot up or even to counter balance with your head... you must use your hips. It takes your ability to cheat away (mostly).

The details you focus on with the stances, then show up in your fighting stance. They are hard to see, as they are small. But, they do make a difference that you can feel.

Why do we never see threads about how boxers use their jump roping in the ring? We never break down a boxers stance and footwork while in the ring to show "look, this is the same stance he had when jumping rope... his hands are down by his waist, one on each side, his feet close together, he has just jumped up from both feet.... then he ate the punch that put him through the ropes...." We just accept that jumping rope develops a number of things for the boxer, that he will use in the ring, even though we know he will never assume the jump rope stance in a fight. Same should go for stances. They are tools to teach things. Specifically, they magnify problem areas, allowing you to practice fixing those problems and improving those areas, so that those improvements will show up in your natural fighting stance.

 

[GojuTommy]

What's wrong with the real world use for stances being a training tool? That is their best real world use. Used as a training tool, they have a lot to teach.

At the beginning, many people have to learn how to walk... literally. Ever watch people rock side to side with their entire body, in order to take a step? Or people that lean forward, and use their legs and feet to keep them up as they fall forward? Many people come up with ways to walk, that do not articulate the hips, knees, and ankles in an efficient manor. Stance work forces you to walk in a different way, if you have one of these less efficient types of walks. This alone can make you better at fighting....

Stances teach rooting, balance, structure, power generation, movement, turning.... at the basic level. Then they teach how to move while keeping that balance. How to lunge, without over extending. Once we have learned how to generate the power, it teaches us how to put that power into our hands and feet, in different directions. It teaches us how to move your body... In order for this punch to produce power in that direction, I have to adjust my body....

I don't believe that most stances are meant to actually fight from. I think that they are exaggerations, that were designed to allow us to focus on small details found with in a normal fighting stance. By getting low, and wide and big... you have to get the details right in order to make the move you want to make. Take the walking example from before. At a normal stance, it is easy to rock to the side, so that your other foot comes off the ground, so you can fling it forward. You can just move your head to the side to shift the balance when you step, instead of moving your hips. Now, when you get into a low, wide karate stance... you can not lean to the side enough to pick your foot up or even to counter balance with your head... you must use your hips. It takes your ability to cheat away (mostly).

The details you focus on with the stances, then show up in your fighting stance. They are hard to see, as they are small. But, they do make a difference that you can feel.

Why do we never see threads about how boxers use their jump roping in the ring? We never break down a boxers stance and footwork while in the ring to show "look, this is the same stance he had when jumping rope... his hands are down by his waist, one on each side, his feet close together, he has just jumped up from both feet.... then he ate the punch that put him through the ropes...." We just accept that jumping rope develops a number of things for the boxer, that he will use in the ring, even though we know he will never assume the jump rope stance in a fight. Same should go for stances. They are tools to teach things. Specifically, they magnify problem areas, allowing you to practice fixing those problems and improving those areas, so that those improvements will show up in your natural fighting stance.

Didn’t read this whole essay, but the idea that common methods of training stances is comparable to jumping rope shows that you are either being intentionally dense or really don’t understand training methods as a whole.

No boxing coach claims that jumping rope itself is directly related to fighting and everyone understands that jumping rope is a cardio exercise, and boxers don’t spend an overwhelming amount of their training time jumping rope. Karateka spend most of their time training engaged in stances in some manner. Speed bag would have been a slightly better comparison, but again boxing coaches tell people speed bag is for hand/eye coordination and reflexes, and no boxing coach is implying that you’ll punch a person like you hit a speed bag.

Meanwhile karate instructors run around talking about the importance of kata and everything within it for fighting, which includes stances. If an instructor is using stances for the sole purpose of strengthening leg muscles that’s fine, but then they shouldn’t be saying things that lead students to believe they should be trying to do those stances in a fight.

Most karate instructors talk about the importance of stances and their students spend a lot of time doing stances, but those instructors never bridge the gap between stances in drills including kata, and how to apply them to fighting.

As for power generation that’s just a flat out lie. Karate stances are flat footed, and if you want to generate power you use your rear foot to push off the ball of the foot to generate power. There’s so much BS about power generation in karate and other TMAs it’s absolutely ridiculous.

I agree most stances are exaggerations, but the word stance is a poor translation and dachi means something closer to step if Jesse enkamp is to be believed.
Stances are very short term transitional steps. It’s easy to see how they can be used to open up or close a gap with most of them, but using them to take angles and for head movement is something most karateka never seem to figure out. Mostly it seems because most karateka seem to think their technique while actually fighting should look the same as when doing kata.

 

[Holmejr]

Just like techniques, stances happen in a blink of an eye. We learn a technique almost in slow motion, but it can’t stay that way to be effective. The seamless transition from stance to stance eventually becomes footwork. It’s what make most techniques work.

 

[GojuTommy]

Just like techniques, stances happen in a blink of an eye. We learn a technique almost in slow motion, but it can’t stay that way to be effective. The seamless transition from stance to stance eventually becomes footwork. It’s what make most techniques work.

It’s just unfortunate that doesn’t seem to be the way they’re taught to a lot of people.

 

[isshinryuronin]

even in a dojo that did continuous contact sparring the way we trained, and the way we fought had a massive disconnect.

This is often the case. The disconnect comes from the evolution of karate from pure combat to competitive sport, both in sparring and forms. Most training, especially in forms and stances, are from the original style of karate and often do not translate well to the modern sport style of fighting.

I don't believe that most stances are meant to actually fight from. I think that they are exaggerations, that were designed to allow us to focus on small details found with in a normal fighting stance. By getting low, and wide and big... you have to get the details right in order to make the move you want to make.

To continue from the above explanation: Original karate was done close-in with a lot of stand-up grappling, torquing joints and takedowns, something not seen in modern sparring, so the stances were designed for that use. So, trying to apply these stances to modern sparring seems like they are not effective. But when used as originally intended, they are often effective.

Most karate instructors talk about the importance of stances and their students spend a lot of time doing stances, but those instructors never bridge the gap between stances in drills including kata, and how to apply them to fighting.

You have to apply them the way they were designed to be used.

Stances are very short term transitional steps. It’s easy to see how they can be used to open up or close a gap with most of them, but using them to take angles and for head movement is something most karateka never seem to figure out.

Often true.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Original karate was done close-in with a lot of stand-up grappling, torquing joints and takedowns, something not seen in modern sparring, so the stances were designed for that use. So, trying to apply these stances to modern sparring seems like they are not effective. But when used as originally intended, they are often effective.

Agree with you 100% on this. Here is a good example. This stance may not make sense to a striker. It looks like a bow-arrow stance, but the foot turn outward. When your opponent uses foot sweep on you, you turn your shin bone to meet his foot sweep. If foot sweep is not allowed (and shin bite is not allowed) in sparring, you will never use this stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hmm.. I'm usually all over this stance conversation. Not like me to have nothing to say about stances. At least this time around.

 

[wab25]

Didn’t read this whole essay

Its okay... I did read your response though. I like to read all of what a poster says before responding to them... but that is just me.

everyone understands that jumping rope is a cardio exercise

If that is all you are getting out of jumping rope, you are missing a few things. Why not skip the jump rope and run a few minutes longer? Hint, the answer is that there are other things, besides cardio in jumping rope, that you don't get from other cardio exercises, that pertain to boxing.

As for power generation that’s just a flat out lie. Karate stances are flat footed, and if you want to generate power you use your rear foot to push off the ball of the foot to generate power.

Last time I did the front stance... my back leg was locked out straight. The only push you get from the back leg, is from the ankle straightening. When you make that step forward lunge punch, the power comes from the front foot. The front foot pulls you forward, until your body gets ahead of it, and it becomes the back leg and then it begins to push. Sure, when fighting, I do not get into such a deep stance and I use the back leg to push (which you can do from a more natural stance...) but I also use the front leg to pull. I have two legs, so I use both, together, to generate more power than just using the one. It also means that I can close distance faster...

When you generate power, the first thing you need is a structure and foundation. Which is what the stances are. As you move from stance to stance, or take steps in the same stance... you are moving your body weight. When you have 200 pounds of weight moving, thats a significant amount of power. Sure, you should add your muscle to that power... but its not and either or thing... unless you never learn to use your body weight / mass to generate power. Just shifting from back stance to front stance, when done correctly, can generate a lot of power, without a lot of muscle. Add muscle in to that movement, at the right place, and you generate a lot of power.

I guess Karate instructors are not the only ones guilty of not closing the gap...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Original karate was done close-in with a lot of stand-up grappling, ...

This stance also doesn't make sense for the striking art. It only makes sense for the throwing art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Last time I did the front stance... my back leg was locked out straight.

The front stance (bow-arrow stance) should be the end of a punch. Before that punch, your back leg should be bending.

You have to compress before you can release. The front stance is the end of the releasing. IMO, the compressing stage is more important for discussion. Usually the compressing stage is either a horse stance, 4-6 stance (40%-60% weight distribution), or a 3-7 stance.

In this clip, the compressing stage is a horse stance.

 

[drop bear]

The issue is that you are using stances differently to the way you are applying them. Stances like skipping rope or ladder work are exercises that resemble the skills you need to employ to make stances work in a fight.

Stances like static holds and walking have too many steps away from application for it to be efficient use of training time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Original karate was done close-in with a lot of stand-up grappling, torquing joints and takedowns, something not seen in modern sparring,

I started noticing this with my sparring. When I'm defending against arm control I often think of things like. "I wonder if I can pluck his eyeball from this clinch." At close range I can touch my opponent's face at will. There's little resistance and a lot of the unique strikes begin to make sense. At the minimum it appears that there is more opportunity to pull off some real kung fu.

 

[GojuTommy]

This is often the case. The disconnect comes from the evolution of karate from pure combat to competitive sport, both in sparring and forms. Most training, especially in forms and stances, are from the original style of karate and often do not translate well to the modern sport style of fighting.


To continue from the above explanation: Original karate was done close-in with a lot of stand-up grappling, torquing joints and takedowns, something not seen in modern sparring, so the stances were designed for that use. So, trying to apply these stances to modern sparring seems like they are not effective. But when used as originally intended, they are often effective.

You have to apply them the way they were designed to be used.

Often true.

Karate training doesn’t translate well to self defense or combat sport.

As for the old way of training which old way? Old school PE method, or the pre-integration to the school systems? Because the former was never really intended to teach people to fight and that’s what influenced modern karate training the most. The latter it’s nearly impossible to know how they trained before school integration.

We know they did kata, and had some S&C exercises but beyond that there’s very few records of how things were trained 170 years ago.

 

[GojuTommy]

Its okay... I did read your response though. I like to read all of what a poster says before responding to them... but that is just me.


If that is all you are getting out of jumping rope, you are missing a few things. Why not skip the jump rope and run a few minutes longer? Hint, the answer is that there are other things, besides cardio in jumping rope, that you don't get from other cardio exercises, that pertain to boxing.


Last time I did the front stance... my back leg was locked out straight. The only push you get from the back leg, is from the ankle straightening. When you make that step forward lunge punch, the power comes from the front foot. The front foot pulls you forward, until your body gets ahead of it, and it becomes the back leg and then it begins to push. Sure, when fighting, I do not get into such a deep stance and I use the back leg to push (which you can do from a more natural stance...) but I also use the front leg to pull. I have two legs, so I use both, together, to generate more power than just using the one. It also means that I can close distance faster...

When you generate power, the first thing you need is a structure and foundation. Which is what the stances are. As you move from stance to stance, or take steps in the same stance... you are moving your body weight. When you have 200 pounds of weight moving, thats a significant amount of power. Sure, you should add your muscle to that power... but its not and either or thing... unless you never learn to use your body weight / mass to generate power. Just shifting from back stance to front stance, when done correctly, can generate a lot of power, without a lot of muscle. Add muscle in to that movement, at the right place, and you generate a lot of power.

I guess Karate instructors are not the only ones guilty of not closing the gap...

Holy **** the method you describe of generating power with zenkustu dachi is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. That's more weight on the back bending leg, and you can raise your leading foot whenever you want to.

 

[wab25]

The front stance (bow-arrow stance) should be the end of a punch. Before that punch, your back leg should be bending.

You have to compress before you can release. The front stance is the end of the releasing. IMO, the compressing stage is more important for discussion. Usually the compressing stage is either a horse stance, 4-6 stance (40%-60% weight distribution), or a 3-7 stance.

That may be true for Chinese arts. In Karate arts it is as I said... back leg is straight:

Zenkutsu Dachi - Bujutsu Martial Arts Centre

Zenkutsu Dachi is a stance used by the Japan Karate Association and is a very common stance in the Shotokan world. Zenkutsu Dachi is also known as forward stance and front stance. In Zenkutsu Dachi the front knee is bent so that the front of the knee is in line with the big toe. The […]

bujutsumartialarts.com.au

In Zenkutsu Dachi the front knee is bent so that the front of the knee is in line with the big toe.

The outside edge of the front foot should be in a straight line, this means that the big toe must be turned in a bit to achieve this straight line.

The back leg is straight.

Below, you can see the lunge punch thrown from front stance. What he does not go into, is that the first part of the movement (he calls it step 1) you are pulling your self forward, before pushing. Front leg pulls, before becoming back leg and pushing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That may be true for Chinese arts. In Karate arts it is as I said... back leg is straight:

I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out. Do Karate guys use front stance as a fighting stance?

I believe after the punch (power generation), the back leg should slide forward (bend). This way if your opponent steps back, you can step forward quickly.

I have always believed that a striker should have fast footwork. In the following clip, you don't see stances. You only see steps.