Sports vs Traditional in terms of Self Defense

dunc

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I’d also just throw in that there is a constant stream of videos showing BJJ being used effectively in self defence situations

I don’t think that invalidates the efficacy of other less widespread arts and there are BJJ fails out there, but it’s pretty hard for anyone to trawl through YouTube etc and conclude that BJJ does not work for some fairly common “street altercations“
 

drop bear

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I’d also just throw in that there is a constant stream of videos showing BJJ being used effectively in self defence situations

I don’t think that invalidates the efficacy of other less widespread arts and there are BJJ fails out there, but it’s pretty hard for anyone to trawl through YouTube etc and conclude that BJJ does not work for some fairly common “street altercations“

And to add to this. It looks like BJJ when they do it. Rather than training one method and then doing another in a fight.
 
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Nobufusa

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Ostensibly : a Ninja gets good at infiltrating a gaurded position, retrieving information, and escaping without being detected.
You get good at what you actually do. Olympic style TKD folks have some real skill. I’ve seen some TKD guys (and karateka) make the transition to MMA. It takes some time. Just like a pure grappler would have some work to do. But that’s all layering skill onto skill.

What does a ninja get good at? What do they do?

good point. I had in mind where adults just staring out.
 
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Nobufusa

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The whole idea of letting people do what they like leads to people being misinformed and falling into cult martial arts, and wasting decades in styles or systems that get them killed or injured in an actual altercation or survival scenario. There has to be some sort of standard of truth or reality to measure ourselves against.
 

Flying Crane

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The whole idea of letting people do what they like
Yes, terrible thing, that.
leads to people being misinformed and falling into cult martial arts, and wasting decades in styles or systems that get them killed or injured in an actual altercation or survival scenario.
Or…it doesn’t.
There has to be some sort of standard of truth or reality to measure ourselves against.
What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HA!!!
 

drop bear

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Yes, terrible thing, that.

Or…it doesn’t.

What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HA!!!
See if someone did woo woo magic. We would test it like this.


And most people would understand the outcome.
 
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Nobufusa

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Yes, terrible thing, that.



Or…it doesn’t.



What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HAYou
Yes, terrible thing, that.

Or…it doesn’t.

What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HA!!!

!!!



Yes, terrible thing, that.

Or…it doesn’t.

What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HA!!!
Yes, terrible thing, that.

Or…it doesn’t.

What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where
Yes, terrible thing, that.

It can be, especially if someone likes engage in harmful behavior like gambling, drugs, cults, or fake martial arts. Sometimes, they need someone to help open their eyes.

Or…it doesn’t.
Or it actually does and you don't know what you're talking about.

What is that truth? Who gets to dictate where the lines are drawn. You? HA!!!

I never claimed to know the truth. What I do know is that you are a toxic bad faith actor and you aren't here to even engage the original discussion but to troll. But to answer your question is that the truth is obtained through various methods, including discussion, questioning and testing. The entire point of posting here was to obtain some measure of truth from people more experienced than myself.
 

Flying Crane

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It can be, especially if someone likes engage in harmful behavior like gambling, drugs, cults, or fake martial arts. Sometimes, they need someone to help open their eyes.
Mea culpa. I didn’t realize we were discussing gambling, drugs, or cults. Like all those BJJ cultists. Bunch of zealots, those fellows. Nobody should be allowed to do what they want, if I have decided it’s unhealthy or unwise or simply not what I like.
Or it actually does and you don't know what you're talking about.
Or it actually doesn’t.

I never claimed to know the truth.
At last, some honesty around here.
What I do know is that you are a toxic bad faith actor and you aren't here to even engage the original discussion but to troll.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
But to answer your question is that the truth is obtained through various methods, including discussion, questioning and testing. The entire point of posting here was to obtain some measure of truth from people more experienced than myself.
Except that you have already decided what you want the truth to be. You aren’t here to learn anything. You are here to tell everyone what you think they need to do.
 
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Nobufusa

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Mea culpa. I didn’t realize we were discussing gambling, drugs, or cults. Like all those BJJ cultists. Bunch of zealots, those fellows. Nobody should be allowed to do what they want, if I have decided it’s unhealthy or unwise or simply not what I like.
According to your logic, everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, even when it includes hurting themselves or otherwise. (FYI: some martial arts are cults)

Or it actually doesn’t.
Actually It does, if I did what I liked, I would still be doing a fake martial art, only thanks to Chris's guidance was I better informed in order to make the decision of leaving that Martial Art and pursuing another. Not everyone is as lucky as me to have encountered the guidance and wisdom of someone like Chris. And if it wasn't for Chris, I would likely have ended up like the guys who do fake martial arts for decades or their entire life- simply because I didn't know any better and I thought I liked it.

At last, some honesty around here.
When haven't I been honest? Will need proof.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
Sounds like a toxic case of projection. I am the OP of this thread, I posted a video to discuss (which you haven't watched) and have done little else besides respond to people's comments. So how exactly am I trolling? You yourself admitted to not having any interesting in engaging the actual topic of the thread, or watching the video we are discussing, which means you are simply here to troll and derail.

Except that you have already decided what you want the truth to be. You aren’t here to learn anything. You are here to tell everyone what you think they need to do.

What truth did I decide? What did I tell everyone? It sounds like you are offended by John Danaher's claims (Which is strange considering you haven't watched the video, so I guess you are offended by what you assume he said), and have confused him and his comments with mine. I did not say that I necessarily agree with John Danaher, I asked what people's thoughts were on his comments in the video I presented. Hope that clears up your confusion. Maybe you won't be so confused if you watched the video and engaged the thread honestly instead of coming here to troll and mentally defecate while derailing the discussion board.
 
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Nobufusa

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I’ll take your word for it. How much of that do they actually do?
Ok this is totally off topic, but this has actually been proven with indisputable historical primary sources beyond any shred of a doubt.

the Portuguese-Japanese Jesuit dictionary- published in 1603, which is the first dictionary that translates Japanese to a European language, defines a Xinobi (original word for Ninja) as a spy who infiltrates castles to collection information (paraphrased because I do not have the exact definition on hand).


anyone who states Ninja aren't real or is some sort of fantasy is absolutely full of crap, or they are attacking a Hollywood image strawman that has no relevance to history.

Ninja (Shinobi) were real, they did exist, they are found in authentic primary sources, and they did the sort of missions that are normally associated with them- as per the AUTHENTIC primary sources that they are mentioned in.

Antony Cummins demonstrates the source here, and yes, I know everyone hates Antony Cummins but the source itself has already been published by Stephen Turnbull, and isn't disputed by anybody.

 
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isshinryuronin

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Back to the topic, if I may. To be sure, there are many variables and overlaps in the self defense efficacy of this or that martial art, and their approach in training. Sparring (sport) has been said to be the only, or at least the best, way to prepare oneself for real combat. I think it is very useful in developing tactical thinking, reaction speed, ability to somewhat handle stress and resistance, and in getting used to bodily contact, all without killing the opponent. That said, it is not the full solution.

Sparring is by definition a back-and-forth affair, with rule, point, and time constraints. In this respect, it can be called a game. Some rules are in place, not only to protect the fighters, but to encourage entertainment value. TKD scoring, for example, puts higher value on spinning jump kicks to the head. But those are riskier moves one may not want to attempt in actual combat. They are impressive to watch, though. Not so true of a close range upward elbow which may hard to see in the flurry of combat. Such a move can be devastating and be of more practical use, like a stomp to the knee which is not even allowed in sport.

We can contrast sport sparring with two person drills. The latter were the main method of training before MA was sport, designed solely to prepare oneself for actual combat. We should remember those early karate men whose vocation was security agents against bandits and pirates, law enforcement, or royal bodyguards. Quick incapacitation of the opponent was the only goal.

Two approaches with their own tactics, two desired outcomes, although as I mentioned, there is overlap. Each has its good points. Can you be victorious in real combat just training one or the other. I think, yes, but neither is guaranteed. These days, IMO, it is practical to combine the two training methods, along with all the other types of training like strength, cardio, body hardening, de-escalation, etc. The ratio of time spent in these several areas depends on the person's goals in training MA, as well as their individual natural attributes.
 
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Nobufusa

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Back to the topic, if I may. To be sure, there are many variables and overlaps in the self defense efficacy of this or that martial art, and their approach in training. Sparring (sport) has been said to be the only, or at least the best, way to prepare oneself for real combat. I think it is very useful in developing tactical thinking, reaction speed, ability to somewhat handle stress and resistance, and in getting used to bodily contact, all without killing the opponent. That said, it is not the full solution.

Sparring is by definition a back-and-forth affair, with rule, point, and time constraints. In this respect, it can be called a game. Some rules are in place, not only to protect the fighters, but to encourage entertainment value. TKD scoring, for example, puts higher value on spinning jump kicks to the head. But those are riskier moves one may not want to attempt in actual combat. They are impressive to watch, though. Not so true of a close range upward elbow which may hard to see in the flurry of combat. Such a move can be devastating and be of more practical use, like a stomp to the knee which is not even allowed in sport.

We can contrast sport sparring with two person drills. The latter were the main method of training before MA was sport, designed solely to prepare oneself for actual combat. We should remember those early karate men whose vocation was security agents against bandits and pirates, law enforcement, or royal bodyguards. Quick incapacitation of the opponent was the only goal.

Two approaches with their own tactics, two desired outcomes, although as I mentioned, there is overlap. Each has its good points. Can you be victorious in real combat just training one or the other. I think, yes, but neither is guaranteed. These days, IMO, it is practical to combine the two training methods, along with all the other types of training like strength, cardio, body hardening, de-escalation, etc. The ratio of time spent in these several areas depends on the person's goals in training MA, as well as their individual natural attributes.
I think your answer is very reasonable, sound and well made.
 

Flying Crane

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According to your logic, everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, even when it includes hurting themselves or otherwise. (FYI: some martial arts are cults)
Where did I say this? Show me. I will say that that is a different debate that does not need to be had here.

I did take issue with your statement that seemed to suggest people shouldn’t be free to do as they wish which, in the context of this discussion is to train what martial art they wish, in a manner that they find satisfying. Your earlier statement suggested you feel they should not be allowed to. Perhaps some higher authority should dictate what and how people ought to train? That is the message I got from your comment. If you wish to clarify the intention of your meaning, please do.

I don’t know where you live, but I will remind you that a founding principle of the United States (where I live) is the idea that people are free to do as they wish, so long as it does not injure others, and is otherwise within the constraints of established law. Maybe you come from somewhere where that isn’t allowed, I dunno.

If you have taken guidance from Chris Parker, I would say that is probably advice well taken.

The rest of your post doesn’t need comment. I still don’t care about the actual debate, but simply felt that your suggestion that people should not be allowed to make their own training decisions, needed to be challenged.
 

Steve

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Ok this is totally off topic, but this has actually been proven with indisputable historical primary sources beyond any shred of a doubt.

the Portuguese-Japanese Jesuit dictionary- published in 1603, which is the first dictionary that translates Japanese to a European language, defines a Xinobi (original word for Ninja) as a spy who infiltrates castles to collection information (paraphrased because I do not have the exact definition on hand).


anyone who states Ninja aren't real or is some sort of fantasy is absolutely full of crap, or they are attacking a Hollywood image strawman that has no relevance to history.

Ninja (Shinobi) were real, they did exist, they are found in authentic primary sources, and they did the sort of missions that are normally associated with them- as per the AUTHENTIC primary sources that they are mentioned in.

Antony Cummins demonstrates the source here, and yes, I know everyone hates Antony Cummins but the source itself has already been published by Stephen Turnbull, and isn't disputed by anybody.

Okay. But I mean the guys who train it now? How much of it do they do? I’m guessing not much.
 

Buka

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On the discussion of "letting people do what they like"......depends on the context.

I teach people how to fight. But I can't teach all people the same way. To me, that's nuts, it doesn't work. Show them every possible way, all tried against resistance, let them learn what works for them, for their particular size, shape, fitness level, personality etc. Yes, you guide them every step of the way, but they're the ones taking those steps. They're also taking the punches, kicks, takedowns, chokes, etc.

I know of a lot of places where once you spar with one guy, everybody else is pretty much the same. Like programmed robots.

To me, that just ain't right.
 
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Nobufusa

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On the discussion of "letting people do what they like"......depends on the context.

I teach people how to fight. But I can't teach all people the same way. To me, that's nuts, it doesn't work. Show them every possible way, all tried against resistance, let them learn what works for them, for their particular size, shape, fitness level, personality etc. Yes, you guide them every step of the way, but they're the ones taking those steps. They're also taking the punches, kicks, takedowns, chokes, etc.

I know of a lot of places where once you spar with one guy, everybody else is pretty much the same. Like programmed robots.

To me, that just ain't right.

The problem with just "letting people do what they like" is that that's how people wind up in fake martial arts and cult martial arts without realizing it, simply because they didn't know any better. They do something they think they like, not realizing that they are learning and training in nonsense, and then get hurt in the street or elsewhere trying to apply techniques or moves that don't work because nobody told them any better. I know this because that was me, only thankfully I didn't have to learn the hard-way that what I was learning was only deluding my own perception of my abilities.
 

Buka

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The problem with just "letting people do what they like" is that that's how people wind up in fake martial arts and cult martial arts without realizing it, simply because they didn't know any better. They do something they think they like, not realizing that they are learning and training in nonsense, and then get hurt in the street or elsewhere trying to apply techniques or moves that don't work because nobody told them any better. I know this because that was me, only thankfully I didn't have to learn the hard-way that what I was learning was only deluding my own perception of my abilities.
True.

But choosing what you like against honest resistance tends to straighten itself out rather quickly. When you choose wrongly and repeatedly get smacked in the face it tends to have you rethink your choice very quickly. (with the input of the instructors, of course)

Again, it's a matter of context. Doing whatever you like against no resistance has absolutely no consequences, other than looking bad to people who are experienced.

Doing what you like against legitimate, experienced fighters is a feedback machine that points out the error of your ways.

Allowing students, any student, to be deluded about their abilities is so wrong it should be a criminal offense. And, yeah, I was there, too with my first Instructor. To this day, the biggest bullshipper I've met in the Arts. But as it usually does, Karma got him BIG TIME.
 

Martial D

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depends on how you define self defense. Doesn't it? And we know there are a LOT of different definitions of that term.
So true.

The BEST self defense style is 'shut-in Ryu hermit do.'

If you never leave your home you should be safe for the most part.
 

Flying Crane

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The problem with just "letting people do what they like" is that that's how people wind up in fake martial arts and cult martial arts without realizing it, simply because they didn't know any better. They do something they think they like, not realizing that they are learning and training in nonsense, and then get hurt in the street or elsewhere trying to apply techniques or moves that don't work because nobody told them any better. I know this because that was me, only thankfully I didn't have to learn the hard-way that what I was learning was only deluding my own perception of my abilities.
Ok, so, YOU ended up in a school training nonsense. That does not mean everyone else is.

I fully agree that a lot of schools are teaching garbage. That is pretty obvious. But what you are advocating, whether you realize it or not, is a central “authority” who dictates what and how everyone must train. Good luck with that.

What it seems to me that you don’t understand is that there is more than one single way to train that produces quality results. If you have found something that is good for you, by all means keep doing it. Others need to do the same and that may well be different from what you do.
 
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