Sports relation to Self Defence.

[ralphmcpherson]

Lets just hope some super fit fighter doesn't start a fight with you, then. So long as the opponents are geriatric drunks things work out ok.

My perspective, as one who, because of his 'line of work' trains for 'real life situations' is a firm believer that if what I do will work on the super fit and super tough, it will work on geriatric drunks.......the reverse, however, is not true, and THAT is the real point here.

If 99% of people come up against a super fit pro fighter they are screwed. For a start most people are not 'proffessional' fighters, they dont train full time. Also, what chances does an elderly person have against a super fit pro fighter a third of their age. People train for 'real life' situations and in most cases that means the person attacking you is not a pro fighter. For me personally, I am resigned to the fact that if a pro fighter attacks me I will lose because I dont train the hours they train so irrespective of which martial art I choose to do i am little to no chance against a guy who fights for a living. No MA will have you prepared for EVERY situation, an attacker may have a gun, there may be 20 attackers, they may be a pro fighter etc etc , but Im happy if my MA can have me prepared for MOST situations in a REALISTIC setting. Fighting in a cage is not something I will realistically come up against.

 

[ATC]

Well I look at it like this. If there was one end all art (so called best art) then everyone would be doing only that. Why do anything else. It would have prevailed long ago. Punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. And everything in between is just that too. Everyone gets beat sometime and if not then you just didn't fight enough, that's all.

Back to the actual topic of "does training for sport detract from SD" I say no. In most cases when SD will be needed, the aggressor is not suspecting his victim to fight back. If I train in sport I still train to hit, and hit hard. My footwork and distance is most likely spot on, and my reflex action lightning fast compared to someone not expecting a fight, let alone some average Joe that is not in a sport train athletes shape or level of conditioning. Plus the sport trained athlete will have built up some level of body conditioning as well making it possible to withstand an average Joes punch or hit.

We have people in our dojang that only do SD training and all, again I did say ALL of our sport competitors run circles around them in all situations in the dojang. That mean both sparring and SD drills. The sport guys are just faster, stronger, and better with all techniques.

Now that is not to say that the SD only guys won't or can't hold their own in a real SD situation. It is that the sport guys level of training is far superior than the SD guys. Because they spar constantly vs. others that are also just as good or better in fluid and give and take fashion. They develop timing and distance that you cannot get if you are not training and then competing at constantly. You just can't drill SD in the same fashion.

So in the end I believe that sport enhances or helps your SD if you are also training SD as well.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well I look at it like this. If there was one end all art (so called best art) then everyone would be doing only that. Why do anything else. It would have prevailed long ago. Punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. And everything in between is just that too. Everyone gets beat sometime and if not then you just didn't fight enough, that's all.

Back to the actual topic of "does training for sport detract from SD" I say no. In most cases when SD will be needed, the aggressor is not suspecting his victim to fight back. If I train in sport I still train to hit, and hit hard. My footwork and distance is most likely spot on, and my reflex action lightning fast compared to someone not expecting a fight, let alone some average Joe that is not in a sport train athletes shape or level of conditioning. Plus the sport trained athlete will have built up some level of body conditioning as well making it possible to withstand an average Joes punch or hit.

We have people in our dojang that only do SD training and all, again I did say ALL of our sport competitors run circles around them in all situations in the dojang. That mean both sparring and SD drills. The sport guys are just faster, stronger, and better with all techniques.

Now that is not to say that the SD only guys won't or can't hold their own in a real SD situation. It is that the sport guys level of training is far superior than the SD guys. Because they spar constantly vs. others that are also just as good or better in fluid and give and take fashion. They develop timing and distance that you cannot get if you are not training and then competing at constantly. You just can't drill SD in the same fashion.

So in the end I believe that sport enhances or helps your SD if you are also training SD as well.

couldnt agree more, I simply cannot understand the mindset that certain forms of sparring are 'useless'. Somebody who spars regularly is light years ahead of some guy on the street who does no training. At the very least they are learning distancing, reflexes, they gain strength and conditioning and in a lot of cases they work their asses off when compared to some 'average joe' who just throws a punch and hopes for the best.

 

[ATC]

couldnt agree more, I simply cannot understand the mindset that certain forms of sparring are 'useless'. Somebody who spars regularly is light years ahead of some guy on the street who does no training. At the very least they are learning distancing, reflexes, they gain strength and conditioning and in a lot of cases they work their asses off when compared to some 'average joe' who just throws a punch and hopes for the best.

I hear ya. You are preaching to the choir on this one. When I was younger and still messing around with competition and hard as a rock (Don't train that much so now I am soft compared to my 20's) I had a situation while in a club when a guy was not watching what he was doing and ran smack into me (I also was not paying attention). Well the guy bounced off me and fell down. I was able to spot him at the last second and shift to brace in a way as to protect myself. Well that was not the thing that got me, it was what the guy said afterwards. He stated that he felt like he hit a wall. He told me that I was as hard as a brick wall. I laughed and just helped him up but in my mind I was like yeah I better be, I workout every day to be that way.

Just about every serious sport fighter I know is rock hard. Even the skinny ones. They are solid and light on their feet and quick as lightning too. If needed to, they'd drop a good percentage of the population if they had to pretty quickly.

Now with that said I am not...and I repeat...not saying that you could not train in SD only and not do the same. I am just saying that sport won't detract from SD if you are training SD.

 

[Tez3]

And if the sparring is the type I've seen at some places, the absolutely no touch ever sparring? is that still useful?

 

[ATC]

And if the sparring is the type I've seen at some places, the absolutely no touch ever sparring? is that still useful?

To some extent but I do believe that you need to make contact, even if a medium amount to have the greatest benefit. With no contact at all your distance is adjusted to always just miss your opponent and you will get use to doing just that. Plus if you don't make contact then there is no need to block anything really as you will not get hit so why really block. And if you are not hitting, taking hits, and blocking hits then how do your condition your body?

You will still benefit from the foot work and endurance conditioning but little else. You have to touch and with some force at that.

No touch is great for beginners but at some point you have to progress beyond that.

 

[MJS]

How often do you test it on the streets? Here's the reality....most opponents on the street are unskilled and unmotivated. The fact that someone manages to pull off a given technique against some half drunk thug isn't really evidence that it's a superior technique.

I made a point in another thread that the heavy sparring i've had have been tougher and better tests than the several street encounters i've had.

I'm not going to quote all of your posts, but I will this one, as it was one that really caught my eye. I'll start by saying this...as I've said many times, I feel that both MMA and TMA can benefit from each other. I've adopted many of the MMA methods into my training, as have many of my training partners and teachers. Obviously that says something. I do agree with the sparring. Personally, I love doing this. I've gotten more out of that, than the typical point sparring that many schools do.

Second, I too, am not a fan of talking about all the 'deadly' stuff that can be done. Not saying that its all BS, but again, as I've said before, if thats all that people have in their tool box, is that stuff to fall back on, then IMO, they've missed out on some stuff. For myself, I dont like to fall back on that.

Regarding the first part of your post here...back in the early days, the guys who founded Kajukenbo would do just that...go out and test it on the streets. Of course, doing that today, would probably get you arrested. So, people have to scenario train, bust their *** in the dojo training hard, etc. Then again, when LEOs run thru various training scenarios, they probably stand a very good chance of testing that stuff in the street. Of course, hopefully it all works, because if it doesnt, it could be a matter of life or death.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

And if the sparring is the type I've seen at some places, the absolutely no touch ever sparring? is that still useful?

Its usefulness is very limited in my opinion, but not 'useless'. As a teenager I did a form of karate that sparred the way you described. When I first started I had no idea how to throw a punch correctly, I couldnt kick at all, knew nothing about footwork and I was very unfit. After a year I could throw some basic punches, I knew a few basic kicks, I was significantly fitter and was light and quick on my feet. In the grand scheme of things I still couldnt fight very well BUT I was a lot better than when I first started. So basically, what I was taught was limited but was not 'useless'.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm not going to quote all of your posts, but I will this one, as it was one that really caught my eye. I'll start by saying this...as I've said many times, I feel that both MMA and TMA can benefit from each other. I've adopted many of the MMA methods into my training, as have many of my training partners and teachers. Obviously that says something. I do agree with the sparring. Personally, I love doing this. I've gotten more out of that, than the typical point sparring that many schools do.

Second, I too, am not a fan of talking about all the 'deadly' stuff that can be done. Not saying that its all BS, but again, as I've said before, if thats all that people have in their tool box, is that stuff to fall back on, then IMO, they've missed out on some stuff. For myself, I dont like to fall back on that.

Regarding the first part of your post here...back in the early days, the guys who founded Kajukenbo would do just that...go out and test it on the streets. Of course, doing that today, would probably get you arrested. So, people have to scenario train, bust their *** in the dojo training hard, etc. Then again, when LEOs run thru various training scenarios, they probably stand a very good chance of testing that stuff in the street. Of course, hopefully it all works, because if it doesnt, it could be a matter of life or death.

And that's my point.......there has to be a way to truly test the equipment without having to rely on 'My master said it would work' or 'my master's cousins uncles nephews next door neighbor once used this in the means streets of south Boston.'

 

[sgtmac_46]

If 99% of people come up against a super fit pro fighter they are screwed. For a start most people are not 'proffessional' fighters, they dont train full time. Also, what chances does an elderly person have against a super fit pro fighter a third of their age. People train for 'real life' situations and in most cases that means the person attacking you is not a pro fighter. For me personally, I am resigned to the fact that if a pro fighter attacks me I will lose because I dont train the hours they train so irrespective of which martial art I choose to do i am little to no chance against a guy who fights for a living. No MA will have you prepared for EVERY situation, an attacker may have a gun, there may be 20 attackers, they may be a pro fighter etc etc , but Im happy if my MA can have me prepared for MOST situations in a REALISTIC setting. Fighting in a cage is not something I will realistically come up against.

No MA will have your prepared for EVERY situation.....but my goal is to prepare for as many as possible. Training simply to be able to deal with a geriatric drunk isn't enough for me, in my line of work. Your mileage may vary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well I look at it like this. If there was one end all art (so called best art) then everyone would be doing only that. Why do anything else. It would have prevailed long ago. Punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. And everything in between is just that too. Everyone gets beat sometime and if not then you just didn't fight enough, that's all.

One would think everyone would be 'doing it' if it's the best.......but sometimes doing it right means enduring pain and actually fighting. Most folks aren't really of the mindset to do that, which is why they don't, not because it doesn't work. And the result is that those who won't do that, rationalize their reasons for not doing it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

couldnt agree more, I simply cannot understand the mindset that certain forms of sparring are 'useless'. Somebody who spars regularly is light years ahead of some guy on the street who does no training. At the very least they are learning distancing, reflexes, they gain strength and conditioning and in a lot of cases they work their asses off when compared to some 'average joe' who just throws a punch and hopes for the best.

There's assumption there on who the 'average joe' is. The average joe won't try to assault you. The guy who tries to assault you may be a geriatric drunk, but he also may be a guy who, though having no formal training, has actually been in a few fights.......and that quite often trumps formal light sparring training more than not.

 

[sgtmac_46]

And if the sparring is the type I've seen at some places, the absolutely no touch ever sparring? is that still useful?

If that's the only thing being done, the real result is a false sense of security.

That's what Tyson meant when he said 'Everyone has a plan, until they get hit in the nose!'

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No MA will have your prepared for EVERY situation.....but my goal is to prepare for as many as possible. Training simply to be able to deal with a geriatric drunk isn't enough for me, in my line of work. Your mileage may vary.

Thats pretty much exactly what I said. Nowhere did I say I train to just deal with a geriatric drunk. Ive actually stated several times that I train with law enforcement officers and they use what we are taught on a day to day basis.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think to better clarify my point I look at it like this: Its like a university degree, not everyone who goes to university wants to do a masters degree. Similarly, not everyone who does martial arts wants to take it to the extreme level, I personally do but I recognise that is not for everybody. As I said in a previous post I did a very mild form of karate as a teenager that had very soft sparring and certainly didnt teach me to be a great fighter. It did, however, help me through a few schoolyard fights against some pretty average kids. By me doing it I was slightly better than average so I did alright but I accept that had I come up against the school boxing champ I would have been killed. Similarly, some people train in martial arts to improve their chances if they ever get attacked in an unavoidable situation, they arent training to be an unbeatable pro fighter, they just want to learn some basic self defence and may not have the time, money or commitment to take it any further. And in most cases these people accept that they are no super fighter, I have mates who do MA's that involve only light sparring and they accept that it is what it is, they dont believe they can take on anyone and they certainly dont go around 'talking up' their abilities. I know SOME people will go around talking up their abilities but that happens in all sports, occupations etc

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thats pretty much exactly what I said. Nowhere did I say I train to just deal with a geriatric drunk. Ive actually stated several times that I train with law enforcement officers and they use what we are taught on a day to day basis.

I've been a cop for 14 years, and the fact is that much of what is passed for realistic training among most cops is deficient, and works best on geriatric drunks.

Moreover, much of what is being taught now that is effective in police training evolved directly from the sport world, i.e. MMA, BJJ, Judo, in particular, as well as the FMA's.

Finally, most police officers go their entire careers without ever engaging in a real, honest to god, one of us is going home/one of us is going to the hospital/morgue, knock down drag outs. There are several reasons for this....

1) Effective less lethal weapons.....Tasers, OC Sprays, Batons.
2) Backup allows multiple officer responses
3) Most folks don't fight with the police, and when they do, the above two apply.

So trying to judge the effectiveness of a technique based solely on the anecdotal experience of a given police officer is deficient.......not without value, but at the same time, it's bound to be limited because of the above reasons.

That isn't to say that many officers don't know what they are doing, quite the contrary, but we learn to play the game smart. So the better the officer the LESS often he actually gets real world experience testing his skills. So those skills have to be tested somewhere.

My point about MMA is that it has great value, because it allows us to examine how certain methods and techniques work against someone violently resisting them. Sure, it's a controlled setting, and sure, there are a few, limited rules........but that doesn't change it's merit as an effective test of techniques.

The same can be said for what the Dog Brothers are doing........it's a controlled laboratory of technique, and quite a bit is learned, and, what really hacks a lot of folks off, a lot of sacred cows end up getting slaughtered.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think to better clarify my point I look at it like this: Its like a university degree, not everyone who goes to university wants to do a masters degree. Similarly, not everyone who does martial arts wants to take it to the extreme level, I personally do but I recognise that is not for everybody. As I said in a previous post I did a very mild form of karate as a teenager that had very soft sparring and certainly didnt teach me to be a great fighter. It did, however, help me through a few schoolyard fights against some pretty average kids. By me doing it I was slightly better than average so I did alright but I accept that had I come up against the school boxing champ I would have been killed. Similarly, some people train in martial arts to improve their chances if they ever get attacked in an unavoidable situation, they arent training to be an unbeatable pro fighter, they just want to learn some basic self defence and may not have the time, money or commitment to take it any further. And in most cases these people accept that they are no super fighter, I have mates who do MA's that involve only light sparring and they accept that it is what it is, they dont believe they can take on anyone and they certainly dont go around 'talking up' their abilities. I know SOME people will go around talking up their abilities but that happens in all sports, occupations etc

I think that's all fine, provided we are all honest with ourselves about what we are doing and what we are not doing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think that's all fine, provided we are all honest with ourselves about what we are doing and what we are not doing.

I agree. As long as people understand the limitations of what they are learning then best of luck to them. In my opinion any type of training is better than nothing at all.

 

[Rion]

Comparing sport fighting to real life events just doesn`t work for me. Real MA is not pretty,its ugly and dirty and if i started rolling about the floor trying for this arm lock or tried to fly kick all over the place my sifu would give me a few slaps and tell me to sit down and that we are traing for the street.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No offense to anyone here, but I kind of notice an extreme point of view that runs through a lot of these threads: there seem to be only drunks and competitive/pro fighters.

I'm sure that people don't actually believe that (maybe some do), but those are the two groups that seem to get mentioned the most. I think that there is a whole lot of possibilities between drunken thugs and the competitive/pro fighter.

Most of your opponents on the street are almost as unlikely to be drunks as they are to be pro fighters. The most likely altercation with a drunk is one where a pro fighter will be at an equal disadvantage: a drunk driver.

Another issue is that on most forums, "the street" seems to be very poorly defined, and as near as I can tell, includes your living room, where drunken uncles have inexplicably parked thmselves and where terrorist attacks and gang hits are a constant threat. Apparenlty, "the cage" is the street in miniature. Seemingly the only place not the street is "the dojo," and if you're anywhere outside of the dojo, you'd better be trained like Batman and have all of the accompanying items that go with the suit and body armor capable of stopping a .50 caliber round.

I agree with sgtmac_46: most opponents on the street are untrained and unmotivated. Absolutely true. Opponents outside of training will fall into two categories: non criminals with whom a disagreement has gotten out of control and become a physical altercation (alcohol is unlikely to be involved) or criminals perpetrating a criminal act.

In the case of the former, hard sparring is going to serve you very, very well, provided there are no weapons involved. Throw in guns and knives and unless you've trained to deal with them specifically, the pro fighter is at as much of a disadvantage as the untrained citizen. Regardless, it is usually non-martial skills that make the difference. Non-martial skills are what head these encounters off most of the time, even with drunks. If you want to train in the ____-fu that will effectively protect you in most curcumstances, train in verbal-fu. That and common sense about where one goes and when one travels.

In the case of the latter, actual criminals, I will contend that being a competitive or pro fighter offers you zip and that hard sparring offers you as much advantage as no sparring. Yes, there are exceptions. I love Bill's posts in the self defense section about people with martial arts backgrounds effectively stopping actual criminals with their MA training. These are extraordinary people. And their circumstances are also extraordinary exceptions.

Most (not all) criminals are untrained and unmotivated, so they succeed by taking advantage of circumstances. They avoid circumstances where they are likely to fail. That is why the little old lady with a purse is much more attractive as a target than you are to an unarmed mugger. A guy who wants to rob you will either hold you at gunpoint, pick your pocket and get away, or have buddies, thus avoiding any confrontation that would directly expose him to your ability as a fighter.

Fact is that criminals are like predatory animals. They calculate their targets based on chance of success. Elderly and children are the most vulnerable. Of those in between, women are a more likely target than men. Smaller men or really out of shape men are a more likely target than a man in good condition or a larger man. Confedence plays a part too. They nervous, scared of his or her own shadow person, regardless of gender, is more of a target than the confident person. Thus the confidence building of the ATA and many commercial studios can serve a student very well by itself.

Then there are ambush predators. They lay in wait on jogging trails or watch the crowds for a good mark.

If drunken thugs are what I am encountering most of the time, chances are, I'm hanging out in the wrong part of town or frequenting the bar too often. I train pretty hard. and can handle myself against a lot more than a drunken thug in a straight up fight. But verbal skills, alertness, and common sense are my street proven methods of staying alive.

If I'm being jumped by a pro fighter, chances are I've stepped into the ring. competitive fighters generally don't go around jumping people.

I don't remember who said this, but it was in another thread: '99% of the time, verbal skills, alertness, and common sense will keep you out of trouble. We train for the 1% of the time that those skills are not suffiicient.'

Daniel