Some grappling advice please.

[ShotoNoob]

Striking runs the risk of opening yourself up to a counter, unbalancing yourself, and the possibility of losing control of the knife-wielding hand.

Chris Parker says move. Any move carries risk. A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so. I'm not the only post here....
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Steve's assessment is right on the money because the primary goal should be to establish a more dominant position that will give you more control, and a lot more options to end the situation. Once you're in the mount, or side control, then you can attempt to strike. Frankly, I'd go for the arm bar immediately.

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Hey go for it. You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
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Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
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btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand. You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....

 

[ShotoNoob]

On top of that, you have other MT T's with posts going on & on how dangerous a knife fight is & the choices are limited & time-sensitive compared to an unarmed assailant....
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One things for sure, I'm continuing to read the discussion.... Helps my grappling knowledge alone....

 

[Buka]

OK. Remember, this is just a recreation of where I think we were. My partner was using his legs to stop me getting further up and I was having difficulty reaching his face as he could arch out of range, plus he had his left arm available to push me away.

View attachment 19232
Don't you just hate photos from above?

For fun - I first looked at the photo from the knifer's point of view. He in big trouble.

Since you don't usually start a knife encounter on the ground, or with your wrist in the grip of another, ol' knifer's day has been going steadily downhill from the git go. Not to mention finding his throat clutched by the hand of a "this ain't my first rodeo" older guy. Knifer's in an inferior position, on his back, his legs close together are a weaker base than his opponent's and his grip on his only advantage, the knife, don't look none too good anymore.

K-man, checkmate in three.

So......what would you do if you were the man with the knife?

 

[Hanzou]

Chris Parker says move. Any move carries risk. A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so. I'm not the only post here....

Sure, but some moves are riskier than others. For example, Kman going for the throat or facial strikes as shown in the photo is far riskier than the grappling solutions provided in this thread.

Hey go for it

. You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
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Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
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btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand. You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....

Please show one post where anyone suggested standing still. NO ONE suggested that.

 

[Steve]

Chris Parker says move. Any move carries risk. A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so. I'm not the only post here....
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Hey go for it. You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
|
Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
|
btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand. You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....

For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing. And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk. Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky. Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom.

For fun - I first looked at the photo from the knifer's point of view. He in big trouble.

Since you don't usually start a knife encounter on the ground, or with your wrist in the grip of another, ol' knifer's day has been going steadily downhill from the git go. Not to mention finding his throat clutched by the hand of a "this ain't my first rodeo" older guy. Knifer's in an inferior position, on his back, his legs close together are a weaker base than his opponent's and his grip on his only advantage, the knife, don't look none too good anymore.

K-man, checkmate in three.

So......what would you do if you were the man with the knife?

I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back. I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.

 

[ShotoNoob]

For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing.... And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk. Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky. Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom.

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Glad to see a consensus, on principles too...

I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back. I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.

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Embodied (generally) in my thinking....

 

[drop bear]

Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount. That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand. The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back. Just my immediate thoughts. I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.

Yeah that was one of the questions asked what does knife guy do?

Apparently he was trying to re guard. Where I would have hip escaped,turtle stand up.

 

[Hanzou]

I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.

Yeah, no argument there.

I'm curious as to why so many people are suggesting a scarf hold though. In order to apply a scarf hold, don't you need to bring the knife wielding hand dangerously close to your body?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.

Well, that might be my approach as an experienced grappler. Someone with no grappling experience might be safer jumping to his feet, kicking the knife guy in the crotch before he gets up, and making a run for it. You use the tools you have available.

 

[drop bear]

For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing. And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk. Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky. Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom.

I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back. I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.

Hip out should break the throat grip.

I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.

Ok. What if we didn't? He is trying to re guard then let him. Downward elbows and a keylock.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, no argument there.

I'm curious as to why so many people are suggesting a scarf hold though. In order to apply a scarf hold, don't you need to bring the knife wielding hand dangerously close to your body?

You have to if you want to create torque.which you need for an arm lock.

A scarf can give you the opportunity for a legs only key lock. Or at least a legs mostly.

 

[drop bear]

Well, that might be my approach as an experienced grappler. Someone with no grappling experience might be safer jumping to his feet, kicking the knife guy in the crotch before he gets up, and making a run for it. You use the tools you have available.

I would still improve position before I did that.

 

[Hanzou]

You have to if you want to create torque.which you need for an arm lock.

A scarf can give you the opportunity for a legs only key lock. Or at least a legs mostly.

Is there some modified Scarf Hold I'm not aware of? Isn't the hold like this;

Wouldn't that expose you to some serious knife wounds?

 

[drop bear]

I am just going to guess at somewhere here.

And If I am wrong at least we can rule that one out

Scarf with the keylock. So a bit modified and of course you are not letting that hand near the neck.

 

[Hanzou]

Scarf with the keylock. So a bit modified and of course you are not letting that hand near the neck.

Oh, I understand the key lock from scarf hold. I'm simply pointing out that the scarf hold itself opens you up to getting slashed. Not only at the entry of the hold, but within the hold itself, because you're moving that knife hand dangerously close to your body the entire way through. Even when you're applying the arm bar.

 

[K-man]

I am not a bjj guy so grain of salt. I would keep hold of the knife hand wrist. Scramble forward and out then fire several hard knee strikes to uke's floating ribs. While he is briefly stunned I would remove my hand from his throat fold the knife arm into a reverse goose neck and stab him with his own knife.

Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.

 

[drop bear]

Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.

Catching you in guard would have worked against him.

 

[K-man]

Yeah, there is no good lock available from that position. Remember, position before submission. You really need to improve your position before you try for any finishes. (Especially since in that position, if I'm the guy on the bottom you are going to get cut pretty soon.)

That was my experience. I had no problem maintaining my situation, I just couldn't improve it which means in the end if he has mates I'm up to my neck in the brown stuff.

I've been out from training all week with the flu. Hopefully over the weekend I'll be well enough to play with the position a bit and maybe shoot some video showing you some options.

That would be really good.

You can't just inch your way into a better position, because you don't have solid enough control. On the other hand, you can't just scramble for a better position and give up control of the knife hand. You need a mobile position which will allow you to maintain control of the knife and your opponent's body while you transition into a better finishing position.

Agreed, plus in real life I may not have the time either.

A couple of possibilities are

1) Pop up to knee on belly. From here you can strike, disengage, move to scarf hold, use your outside shin to help pin his arm (and possibly set up some crude disarms), or move to far side side-control.

2) Pin your opponent by planting your head on his belly, piking your butt up high, walking your body perpendicular to your opponent, and getting 2-on-1 control of the knife hand. This leads to some positions that are tricky to describe in print, so I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you have the grappling experience to be familiar with this type of movement.

I'll play around with it again next week.

BTW - I'm presuming from the question that you're wanting a ground grappling approach to the problem. Obviously in a real life situation with other potential assailants around, the best answer might sometimes be to pop to your feet, kick him in the groin, then sprint to find safety or a weapon of your own.

Exactly. It was just I thought there might have been something simple I was overlooking.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I understand the key lock from scarf hold. I'm simply pointing out that the scarf hold itself opens you up to getting slashed. Not only at the entry of the hold, but within the hold itself, because you're moving that knife hand dangerously close to your body the entire way through. Even when you're applying the arm bar.

Yes. But you have to move that arm with your body behind it. No getting around that. You can pin it to the ground but you cant lock it up.