Some grappling advice please.

[K-man]

Last night at training we were playing with knives as we do every session. My partner was a karate guy (BB) with experience in grappling and aikido. He had the knife. We were both sweating so his wrist was quite wet and slippery, same as it would be if there was blood. I managed to control the knife hand but couldn't get a lock. (I probably could have got in a kick or punch but that wasn't what we were training.) Eventually we ended up on the ground where I had side control with my left hand controlling his outstretched right arm, holding his wrist. That was his knife hand. He has far greater grappling skill than me and was able to keep me in a position where I couldn't get much advantage. I finally got the knife by muscling it from his hand (who says blunt knives don't cut? ) but I feel that I should have been able to get a lock on his right arm somehow, something like a figure four. Any ideas?

 

[drop bear]

Were you elbowing him in the face?

Keylock. Probably.

 

[drop bear]

Was it his near side arm or his far side?

So was your body on the side that you had his arm?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Can you clarify the position? Were you in top of side control on his left side, reaching across to control his right wrist with your left hand? What position was his right arm in (extended away from you, extended towards his feet, arm bent up or down, etc)?

There are certainly locks you can apply from that position, but they can be tough to achieve when your partner has more grappling experience than you do. Working against the knife just makes it harder, because you can't afford to let go of the knife arm at any point.

 

[K-man]

Were you elbowing him in the face?

Keylock. Probably.

Couldn't get to his face without letting go the knife hand. A variation of a keylock may have been possible but I would have had to change hands which I was reluctant to do. My 'side control' was a loose description. I had him pinned but I wasn't across his chest, more his hips. I could barely reach his face. When I went for the eyes he could arch away. I certainly could have grabbed his groin from where I was. He was using his legs to keep me at disadvantage.

 

[drop bear]

I am just going to guess at somewhere here.

And If I am wrong at least we can rule that one out

 

[K-man]

Was it his near side arm or his far side?

So was your body on the side that you had his arm?

Yes, body on the side of the arm with the knife.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A fine example of why rolling on the ground is not always the best answer.
You said it yourself. You were (from the way it reads to me) practicing self defense scenarios, but then you imposed an unrealistic restriction on yourself by not allowing striking when it would have been most effective to do so.

 

[Drose427]

Couldn't get to his face without letting go the knife hand. A variation of a keylock may have been possible but I would have had to change hands which I was reluctant to do. My 'side control' was a loose description. I had him pinned but I wasn't across his chest, more his hips. I could barely reach his face. When I went for the eyes he could arch away. I certainly could have grabbed his groin from where I was. He was using his legs to keep me at disadvantage.

Assuming you were perpendicular to him and it sounds like you already had control, you couldve wiggled your legs up to his other arm and tried for a crucifix.

But I could be picturing the position wrong

 

[K-man]

Can you clarify the position? Were you in top of side control on his left side, reaching across to control his right wrist with your left hand? What position was his right arm in (extended away from you, extended towards his feet, arm bent up or down, etc)?

There are certainly locks you can apply from that position, but they can be tough to achieve when your partner has more grappling experience than you do. Working against the knife just makes it harder, because you can't afford to let go of the knife arm at any point.

That was an understatement.
I was on his right side and I had his right arm pretty much straight out to his side. My right arm was across his chest stopping him getting to me with his left arm. My chest was across his right hip but he had wriggle room.

 

[K-man]

A fine example of why rolling on the ground is not always the best answer.
You said it yourself. You were (from the way it reads to me) practicing self defense scenarios, but then you imposed an unrealistic restriction on yourself by not allowing striking when it would have been most effective to do so.

Agree, but this could be a real ground scenario so I'm asking guys more experienced than me what they would do. This wasn't a self defence scenario. This was a guy with a real knife, blunt of course, attacking me with all his strength, not a predetermined attack, just what I could get hold of. Sure a strike may have been effective, then again, it might not.

 

[K-man]

Assuming you were perpendicular to him and it sounds like you already had control, you couldve wiggled your legs up to his other arm and tried for a crucifix.

But I could be picturing the position wrong

Mmm! More parallel to him than perpendicular. I had splayed legs for stability.

 

[Drose427]

Something like that^?

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm following along. Sounds like almost a no-win situation....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That was an understatement.
I was on his right side and I had his right arm pretty much straight out to his side. My right arm was across his chest stopping him getting to me with his left arm. My chest was across his right hip but he had wriggle room.

Did he have one of your legs trapped with his (I.e. half-guard)?

 

[Steve]

Last night at training we were playing with knives as we do every session. My partner was a karate guy (BB) with experience in grappling and aikido. He had the knife. We were both sweating so his wrist was quite wet and slippery, same as it would be if there was blood. I managed to control the knife hand but couldn't get a lock. (I probably could have got in a kick or punch but that wasn't what we were training.) Eventually we ended up on the ground where I had side control with my left hand controlling his outstretched right arm, holding his wrist. That was his knife hand. He has far greater grappling skill than me and was able to keep me in a position where I couldn't get much advantage. I finally got the knife by muscling it from his hand (who says blunt knives don't cut? ) but I feel that I should have been able to get a lock on his right arm somehow, something like a figure four. Any ideas?

I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:

http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg

 

[drop bear]

I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:

http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg

Near side arm I think.

 

[K-man]

Did he have one of your legs trapped with his (I.e. half-guard)?

No but at one stage I was almost in his guard.

View attachment 19231

Something like that^?

No, nothing like this.

I'm following alone. Sounds like almost a no-win situation....

No, I feel there should have been a means of locking up his arm.

 

[K-man]

I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:

http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg

No, I wasn't across his body. I had his arm outstretched on the same side I was on.

 

[K-man]

Guys, I really appreciate your responses. I have to leave now but will come back shortly. What I will do at training tonight is reproduce the position and post a photo. Thank you all for your responses.