Social Sanctions in Taekwondo Class

[Tez3]

We don't have 'punishments', which may sound odd coming from a military club, if you are lazy and don't train properly the only one who dips out is you. You lose the respect of the others and that hurts more than any press up or 'punishment' an instructor can give. Not seen it happen because those that come to the club ( it's a hobby/sport for them albeit one encouraged by the senior officers) want to enjoy training and have enough self discipline to train properly albeit with a lot of banter civvies would find odd.

 

[wingchun100]

Hello,
I belong to a Taekwondo community and attend several classes each week taught by different instructors. I'm trying to learn to live the martial way, but I have to admit, I have a strong tendency to voice my opinions and am dangerously close to doing so in one of the classes I attend.

The instructor of this class relies on social sanctions in the form of group punishment and focused shame to motivate students to do their absolute best. This instructor comes from a military background and is using his military experience to control his class. He threatens to stop the entire class during floor drills [to focus their attention on you] if you don't do things to his satisfaction. He will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent). He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills (where we do some sort of kicking combo across the floor of the dojo). He adds time to exercises if he notices people failing, etc... Those are just the things he did in the last class I attended... he varies it from class to class.

Every time I'm faced with these ultimatums, I'm more and more tempted to stand up and give a little lecture on social sanctions and their effectiveness in long-term relationships, and then refuse to participate, which would be taken as a HUGE sign of disrespect and would definitely not be representative of the martial way.

I'm wondering what your take on using social sanctions in martial arts instruction is.
Thanks!

I vote that you go to a different school where the teaching is a style you can truly learn from. It is his business, and he will run it how he sees fit. You are probably not the first person to dislike his teaching style. He won't change for you.

 

[WaterGal]

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...

It might do you good to explain - politely and outside of class time - to the school owner that Mr. Social Sanction's teaching style isn't a good "fit" for you, and that you'd like to have a different teacher as your primary instructor. Don't insult the teacher, of course, but I'm sure you can make it clear that while you don't think he's a bad guy, his style is too much like a drill sergeant and that makes you uncomfortable.

This will probably be an uncomfortable conversation for you, and may lead to some temporary tension at the school since the owner will probably have to talk to Mr Social Sanction and the other instructor about the change and why it's happening. But if it's a good community, as long as you're respectful in your approach and handle it in private outside of class, it should just be a minor and temporary issue you all can get past.

 

[FireSnake]

We have a friendlier form of this. One of our instructors has us side-stance run and pass the medicine balls, and if anyone drops them, we all go down for push-ups (the slow variety where we hold at the top, middle and a few inches from the ground). Thing is, we know he'd get us to do those anyway even if everyone keeps the medicine balls in the air! Fortunately, there is no "shaming" involved. For most other warmup exercises, people strive to do what they can, and if they can't do that last core-busting leg lift, there's no "punishment" as the class is composed of people with very different fitness levels. All that is ideally expected and encouraged is that people try and push to their limits, and improve.

 

[JR 137]

I have to ask...

Are you obligated to attend this school? Are you obligated to attend this instructor's class? If not, then why worry about it? It seems as though the other students don't have a problem with it. If you bring it up, you'll only cause problems. The teacher shouldn't have to change his teaching style because you don't agree with it. Vote with your feet. If asked why you don't attend his class anymore, say your work schedule changed or say you've got other obligations that night.

If there's a genuine problem and there's several students (including you) who've got concerns greater than "I don't like how he teaches," that's another issue altogether.

 

[lklawson]

As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.

Sounds like Religion. In the case of Westernized Asian Martial "Philosophy" <cough cough> it tends to simultaneously misunderstand Zen and conflate said misunderstanding to Martial pursuits.

Culturally and historically speaking, most cultures and civilizations have their own, often unique, definition of what constitutes "Martial Way." Some are very much what I think you would consider honor bound and <ahem> socially conscious. Some elevate and laud treachery, deceit, and theft (just ask Captain Cook!). Some laud infanticide, rape, secret murder of unarmed civilians, and institutionalized pederasty (I'm looking at you Sparta). It varies based on time period. English martial culture was dramatically different in the 16th Century from what it was in the 19th. Norse raiding culture was tightly tied to Thoristic observance and ritualistic human sacrifice, much to the dismay of many Christian heads hung in a certain Oak tree. Heck, even within the same culture during the same time period, different Martial expressions existed. There was a different culture for Roman Gladiators (many of whom were volunteers) from that of the Roman Army. Late 18th Century Spanish lower social class knife dueling culture was different from the Aristocracy's sword dueling culture, even while maintaining many similarities.

For what it's worth, what you have described of the instructor is very much in line with one of the common permutations of modern western Martial Culture.

What you're looking for is simply not going to fit with how he teaches. Don't attend his classes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I have to ask...

Are you obligated to attend this school? Are you obligated to attend this instructor's class? If not, then why worry about it? It seems as though the other students don't have a problem with it. If you bring it up, you'll only cause problems. The teacher shouldn't have to change his teaching style because you don't agree with it. Vote with your feet.

Yes. <nodding>

If asked why you don't attend his class anymore, say your work schedule changed or say you've got other obligations that night.

If there's a genuine problem and there's several students (including you) who've got concerns greater than "I don't like how he teaches," that's another issue altogether.

No. Absolutely not. If asked, BE HONEST. I'm assuming that this is a commercial martial arts school. They need to make money to stay in business. To make money, they need paying students. If students are not attending, dropping out, going away, even if it's just because "I don't like how he teaches," that's something the Business Owner needs to know. Maybe he's lost other students because of it. Maybe he's lost a LOT of students because of it.

Look at it this way, if it was a restaurant, don't you think the owner should get a straight answer if the reason you're leaving is because you think his lasagna tastes like floor wax?

You don't have to be mean or vindictive. You don't even have to volunteer the information. Most people don't. But for pete's sake, don't lie about it!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We have them. you screw up everybody pays. I dont tnink people are being mentally damaged from the process. There are probably ways to do it well and ways to do it creepy like a lot of things.

I think they have more place in something like a sports team or a military group, where the team depends upon the actions of the members. There, social sanctions create a more direct connection between the individual's actions and the team's outcome, helping strengthen that necessary connection. I'm not sure there's much function to it in most martial arts classes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not an approach that would work well for me. I would leave the class and find a different teacher.

If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't. It won't end well for you. I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you. Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.

What I would probably do is leave, and share my feedback on the way out. As with anyone else, a good instructor can benefit from feedback.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok, you may not like all of this but I'm going to be honest.



Who's definition of 'living the martial way' are you using? What do you mean by living the martial way? Are you planning on being a modern samurai ( not actually possible) for example or are you just training martial arts for fitness, self defence or competition like the rest of us.



I'm not sure why you call them 'social' sanctions, you are training in a martial arts class, it is not a social situation, it's training.



Looking at your opponent is the best thing to do, you shouldn't be looking at him, if he makes you sit down then he is reminding you of this, it's important, if you don't look you won't see the punch coming. some instructors would throw that punch at you to remind you.



That's obviously the way he teaches, some people will like it some won't.



You aren't in a relationship, he's a martial arts instructor you are the student.



What martial way? You are paying to be taught martial arts, if you don't like the instructor and feel you can't learn then leave, find a class you enjoy. You are making it sound like a cult, it's not you are learning martial arts, it's a contract between you and your school/gym, just the same as if you were having dance or singing lessons. As the others have said find somewhere else. And seriously think about this 'martial way' thing.

"Social sanctions" is the common term for punishing the group for an individual's actions. Like making a football team run laps because one member is late.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As an aside, one of my old instructors used 'social sanctions', and those were some of my favorite classes. The others in the class also liked it. It probably helped that there were only about 5 or 6 of us, and we were all pretty serious about training in general (so we weren't always running/doing pushups for the one guy slacking off), but it definitely does have its place, even if some don't like it.

 

[Tez3]

"Social sanctions" is the common term for punishing the group for an individual's actions. Like making a football team run laps because one member is late.

LOL, I actually do know that, I wanted to find out what the OPs frame of mind is regarding the training, etc,I wanted to know why she was calling them 'social sanctions' as opposed to 'group punishments'. as I said it's a martial arts group not a social situation , I wanted to know how it was viewed in regards to the 'living the martial way' comments.

 

[msmitht]

Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group.
Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Desmadona, hope you enjoy it.

My guess is you're fairly new to the world of Martial training, but not to worry, we all were, too. There's all kinds of training, all kinds of teachers, and all kinds of ways to run classes. Maybe this one's not for you, but, maybe, it sort of is. Especially if, as you said, there are other instructors who also teach and you have access to their classes as well. (the old change of pace thing) And the best thing to have in life is a choice.

You said your birth lens - is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. Okay, we all have our battles, but they are not always won by seeking the easier path. Maybe try to attend the class with an inner attitude of, "Go ahead, try to make me uncomfortable, I know your game, It will bounce right off my as I love Tae-kwon-do and excel." At least maybe give it a shot for a couple months. Who knows, you might actually like his class better. If not, just switch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group.
Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.

Just because his approach to training isn't a fit for her, that's not a reason to suggest she should be rude to him AND the entire class.

 

[lklawson]

Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group.

Not to me. To me, it simply sounds like that's just the teaching method he learned and he sticks with it because it's natural to his personality.

Just as we learned in the 80's that there are different "Management Styles," there are also many different teaching styles. This is his.

Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.

Orrrr.... and here's a really really REALLY weird idea...

You could talk to the guy. You know, after class one day, just ask him for a minute of his time, semi-privately. Explain that the teaching style makes you uncomfortable and ask if that's just how he is or if he'll be willing to work with you to accommodate your style of learning?

Yeah, I know the whole idea of talking to someone directly about a potential issue just doesn't fit modern western culture and all, but... Could be worth a shot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not a fan of that style of teaching, but some people really love it. To each their own.

 

[lklawson]

I'm not a fan of that style of teaching, but some people really love it. To each their own.

<nods> Yeah. The older I get, the less patience I have for the Authoritarian style of teaching. meh...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

I'm rather more worries about the 'martial life' and the martial community part. I'd be curious ( and relieved) to know that it was just a normal martial arts school.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

<nods> Yeah. The older I get, the less patience I have for the Authoritarian style of teaching. meh...

Yeah, I can function in that sort of authoritarian setting, it doesn't upset or offend me...

... I just don't have any interest in being involved with it. I can learn the things I want to learn without having to buy into that game.