Social Media Naysayers

[Hot Lunch]

I’m a third degree black belt in Kenpo karate and a brown belt in ishinryu karate. No I don’t train those anymore but I still respect the styles….please feel free to share anything that I’ve said that “has a bone to pick with tma” or…let me guess…you saw my username and jumped to conclusions.


I do find it amusing you’ve made a thread about people talking trash online and when I give an opinion you jump straight in making assumptions and talking trash to me….

I actually mistook you for someone else. Another Muay Thai guy who has a problem with "belts."

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here's an example:

https://fb.watch/vg83IALUZn

Do you think he's unworthy of his black belt, as so many people in the comments are suggesting? Or are these guys just a bunch of haters?

Not familiar with ryuei ryu style or this kata but saw no major problem with his technique execution. Crisp, balanced, controlled, deliberate, strong, etc. Black belt level. This was a competition, so the kata was likely modified a bit and very well-practiced. The comments were not expert critique and mostly general BS.

 

[Same Trick]

About what this thread topic is about it seem the judgement of black belt standard is solely from kata performance.
Loads of top Kumite competitors suck at performing beautiful kata, as well as loads of kata aficionados doesn’t last long in kumite events.
And to be honest look at the “older “ karate masters, say , such as was mentioned in the OP - Hirokazu Kanazawa, his kata performance looks not that great, from a up to date established kata competition performance view.
Look at old pictures of Gichin Funakoshi and they’re probably not of black belt performance level too, both from a kata as well a kumite perspective.

 

[isshinryuronin]

it seem the judgement of black belt standard is solely from kata performance.

One can tell a lot from the way someone does kata.

look at the “older “ karate masters, say , such as was mentioned in the OP - Hirokazu Kanazawa, his kata performance looks not that great, from a up to date established kata competition performance view.

The old guys did not "perform" kata - they executed it. How kata looked to a spectator was completely irrelevant.

 

[Gyakuto]

Here's an example:

https://fb.watch/vg83IALUZn

Do you think he's unworthy of his black belt, as so many people in the comments are suggesting? Or are these guys just a bunch of haters?

It’s not what I’d expect of a third Dan, the techniques lacking focus nor any ‘narrative’ story-telling, but it’s not awful, and standards have ‘changed’ since I was at it in the 80s.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It’s not what I’d expect of a third Dan, the techniques lacking focus nor any ‘narrative’ story-telling, but it’s not awful, and standards have ‘changed’ since I was at it in the 80s.

It was not exceptional, but I thought the techniques were well executed. I do agree that the form lacked "narrative" (well put) due, I think, it being a competition version with little attention to bunkai. It had a mechanical look to it. I looked up some else doing more of a dojo version of the same kata and there was a noticeable difference.

One of the things that struck me when watching the posted video was that it did not look like a Naha-te kata (but I withheld judgement as I don't know much about ryuei-ryu or their kata). However, the other video did show more of the style's Chinese roots.

As I've said before, sport warps the original art to fit the competition mold.

 

[drop bear]

Here's an example:

https://fb.watch/vg83IALUZn

Do you think he's unworthy of his black belt, as so many people in the comments are suggesting? Or are these guys just a bunch of haters?

It's kata.

Who cares?

 

[Gyakuto]

It's kata.

Who cares?

Well yes, for those who roll around on the floor with other sweaty men, kata is of no consequence. But for TMA kata is the grammar of the art. It sets the rules and syntax of the art that makes it elegant in it’s performance. Ya doesn’t needs an all that stuff to make y’all points ‘n’ stuff, but it’s presence in what you do is just…beautiful. Kata turns the art into gourmet cuisine and without it you have those dried curled McDonalds burgers.

 

[Cri70]

This has been getting under my skin for a few years now, and I'm wondering if it's just me. I find that, more often than not, I'm the sole voice of reason (or, at least I'd like to think I am) in these situations.

In particular, a karate dojo may have a public page on facebook or instagram. Or maybe a page for karate enthusiasts posts various videos from many different karate dojos and tournaments on its page.

And it never fails: at least half of the comments on the page say something to the effect of "They just hand out black belts to anybody these days."

I've seen people in the comments say this about famous WKF champions. I've seen people say this in the comments section of a video of Morio Higaonna demonstrating techniques about a year ago, and I saw it just a few days ago in the comments section of Hirokazu Kanazawa performing a kata. Obviously, they didn't know who they were criticizing in these cases.

So I should simply write these guys off as haters who have no clue what they're talking about, right?

Not exactly. When you check out the profiles of some of these haters, there are quite a few renshis and kyoshis among them.

Alot of these guys in the videos are way better than I am or ever expect to be, and they're getting dragged through the mud in the comments.

For those of you who've observed this on social media, is the bashing valid? Or are these guys simply haters trying to feel superior?

Very interesting. I think it depends on both the specifics and your point of view. There's certainly loads of keyboard warriors with lots of opinions and we all know what opinions can be compared to; so let's take them out of the picture and look at people whose appraisal we can think to be somewhat based on some experience or understanding or skill.

There, you have to look at the perspective. Say WKF karate (or Kanazawa, for that matters; Higaonna we can come to later). The cred of karate-do (shotokan in particular, but any japanese -do is really the same) is gained in two ways: one, by doing katas as well and faithfully as possible; and two, by winning points in kumite consistently enough that you stay in the upper echelon of finalists in a number of tournaments, for enough time.

But what's well? And faithful to what? For example, if a kata tells you to have an hand at 61 degrees, your ideal is to be able to freeze, get someone up with a goniometer, measure and find that your hand is exactly at 61 degrees. It matters nothing that that 61 degrees are an arbitrary result of some guy 50 years before shooting a still of a kata in a particular day when his hand was out at 61 degrees, and the hand could be at 40 or 70 with no functional impact on the combative effect that originated that kata. That combative effect is fairly irrelevant (to the point that it's not even stated at all) and - beyond fitness - the essence of -do is that you grind and grind and repeat until you get as close as possible to an arbitrary template of perfection. This shows character, discipline, commitment, unquestioning adherence to your sensei/commander - all damn good things in the Japanese culture which originated it - pre-II WW2 Japan. While making good soldiers is not anymore an explicit aim, the japanese culture and its arts still value lots of these a lot.

Now by itself that it's not problematic. If someone idea of fun is to spend 40 years perfecting certain sequences of movements because of it (and it's certainly a way to show determination to yourself and the rest of the world), so be it. Dancers do it, musicians do it, anyone learning any skill does it.

The difficulty is only that, since (unlike say music or craftsmanship) there is not outer "product" to the effort (other than fidelity to the template by itself),so a lot of people think it's a bit weird - especially when that fidelity comes with boastful declaration of a combative effect that - if you just try - you can easily see it's not really there.

Another difficulty is that fidelity to the template depends on the template: if it changes, previous perfect performances become flawed. There's plenty people looking at early karateka b/w movies and going "that's bad". They're different, and probably were good for the templates of the time, but for most that's a very hard thing to keep in mind when you are used to the templates of your time.

In fairness, modern kata competition has mostly done away with the combative aspect altogether, which is quite honest and good; but of course that will attract puzzlement (if not derision) to anyone who is convinced they should be looking at a combative art, not marvel on how fast people can move limbs without knotting into themselves.

So what makes Kanazawa good? Why is his kata particularly better than, say, an unknown but damn good black belt in a random dojo?

The honest answer is that, of course, it isn't. At least not in a way that is discernible from a video. He's known, famous and he has dedicated his life to his art, spending a large amount of his living days practicing, teaching and living off karate - which is remarkable and exceptional but only if you know about it. The katas of your average regional champion today are miles sharper, faster and crispier than Kanazawa's ever were. We celebrate the man more than his art, and the halo effect is big. Since he's famous, he must be good, and wise and all that.

In a way, that people looks at a Kanazawa video and diss it, is not a bad thing at all (hurtful? Oh yes, to who knows and appreciate the man). Appeal to authority is human and intuitive but ultimately not a great idea at all: in the West we discovered it about 600 years ago, and we now dismiss it (or try to) for most things that matter. Alas, a fun sporting activity does not really matter much (aside to them who make a living off it) so you still find it all over the place because there's no pressure to eliminate it. But it's just as pointless as it was when "Aristoteles says" was the trump card to conclude any discussion.

To be clear, Kanazawa may well still have had a very clear combative intent when performing the a(even though it does not emerge from what he says). It just cannot be seen in a video - you would see it only if he were to actually have a fight.

For kumite, it's even simpler. The very fact that in the most widespread kumite style almost nothing of the myriad techniques in the kata and kihon is used is ridiculous to everybody, except to the people who - for some reason - have decided that it isn't.

Again, if people expect to witness a combative art - the (incredibly athletic and physically demanding) karate kumite sport simply aint it - to say nothing of the n-steps drills. Even the celebrated kyokushin sparring is rather difficult to relate to ("no punches to the head"), and every time (not often) that I watch a clip of Karate Combat, I always wonder where the heck is the karate

That all this happens a lot in social media is simply the effect of the fact that now more people with intuitive expectations about combat arts are exposed to the kata and kumite sports formats. There is a mismatch, there always has been a mismatch, but now way more people witness it, simple as that.

That's what often leads people to either ditch the art, or (like it led me) to attempt do rediscover the "real" thing, taking the -do benefits in terms of athleticism, flexibility, health and overall fitness (which are enormous) but ignoring the entire "one kata per semester" thing and rather spending time retracing, practicing and identifying the clinching/short distance combat methods that the katas so well illustrate. And there are no black belts for that.

Another important aspect is that for well over a century now the main selective pressure on karate has not been its combative effectiveness, but the ability of masters to get classes full of students. There's nothing wrong with it, but they do sell a product - an ideal - and all too often when doing so still play on the confusion between self defense and sport to keep getting pupils (or that good old friend of humanity, self-delusion). Little wonder that - with more witnesses due to social media - the practice is more often revealed for what it is, a little sneaky.

Finally, Higahonna. There's definitely more nuance there, but a lot of the same forces are at play. This day and age, you cannot dedicate your life to karate unless it's a business. A lot of karate practices emerged because the pioneers were trying to find a way to live off it, (from Funakoshi father onwards) and that sorts of imposes certain results.

If I see someone doing a three-step kumite and the person even hints that has some practical use beyond the very minimal, or using karate biomechanics at the completely inappropriate distance, he can be whoever he wants, but it would not inspire much respect in me.

Being the person I am, I will probably say nothing and keep walking. On the Internet, not everybody is like that.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So what makes Kanazawa good? Why is his kata particularly better than, say, an unknown but damn good black belt in a random dojo?

The honest answer is that, of course, it isn't. At least not in a way that is discernible from a video. He's known, famous and he has dedicated his life to his art, spending a large amount of his living days practicing, teaching and living off karate - which is remarkable and exceptional but only if you know about it. The katas of your average regional champion today are miles sharper, faster and crispier than Kanazawa's ever were. We celebrate the man more than his art, and the halo effect is big. Since he's famous, he must be good, and wise and all that.

In a way, that people looks at a Kanazawa video and diss it, is not a bad thing at all (hurtful? Oh yes, to who knows and appreciate the man).

One of the things that baffles me is that, in most of these criticisms, the phrase "these days" is used. The implies older people trying to make "back in my day" claims.

And you're right, despite the "back in my day" claims, you'll never see a video from the 1970's or 1980's of kata being performed as sharply as they are today, even in the video I posted.

So the "back in my day" claims can easily be dismissed.

In my experience, I'd probably have to walk into 10 dojos before even finding one person as who is as quick and sharp as the guys in these videos; and he or she is likely not even the highest person in the dojo.

Does that mean that everywhere I've been sucks? Have I been duped? If I'm not as quick and sharp as the 3rd dan in the video by the time I attain that rank (and I don't expect to be), does that mean it's all worthless?

I know the whole deal about not caring what others think, but I look at karate as a community... and social media is starting to make it look like a toxic one.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"back in my day" claims, you'll never see a video from the 1970's or 1980's of kata being performed as sharply as they are today

This is true, at least as far as competition kata is concerned. This, in itself, is neither good nor bad, just different. Such artistic values depend on the times. As so aptly noted below:

Another difficulty is that fidelity to the template depends on the template: if it changes, previous perfect performances become flawed.

Tastes in artistic expression change over time. This can be seen in styles of art, music and fashion. They are judged by the template and values of the particular time period. The current kata template de jour seems to be very quick sharp combos followed by an insect-like frozen position. Again, this refers to spectator, competition-based kata (though admittedly, this finds its way into many commercial dojo's standard way of doing kata as well). In twenty years, this performance style of kata may not be the point-getter it is now.

It is a different case when the template is traditional, self-defense-oriented karate jutsu. Here, the template is more stable. The ideal is not based on changing fashion, but the more constant template of combat effectiveness. How it works is more important than how it looks.

Which template one wishes to follow depends on their goals and motivation for practicing karate. Can both paths be followed? I think so as long as one is aware of which path they're on and the unique nature of each path. Karate do, karate jutsu, and competition karate all have their value in today's world, and while they share overlap, they are each different animals.

If I'm not as quick and sharp as the 3rd dan in the video by the time I attain that rank (and I don't expect to be), does that mean it's all worthless?

It might be worthless if your goal is to win kata competition. If your goal is self-defense or self-development, the benefits you can obtain by giving your dedicated all will be far from worthless.

 

[drop bear]

Well yes, for those who roll around on the floor with other sweaty men, kata is of no consequence. But for TMA kata is the grammar of the art. It sets the rules and syntax of the art that makes it elegant in it’s performance. Ya doesn’t needs an all that stuff to make y’all points ‘n’ stuff, but it’s presence in what you do is just…beautiful. Kata turns the art into gourmet cuisine and without it you have those dried curled McDonalds burgers.

The only way you can be bad at kata is if someone else arbitrarily determines you are bad.

There is no other measure of success.

And so you could ignore them and say you are good at kata.

Problem solved.

 

[Cri70]

One of the things that baffles me is that, in most of these criticisms, the phrase "these days" is used. The implies older people trying to make "back in my day" claims.

And you're right, despite the "back in my day" claims, you'll never see a video from the 1970's or 1980's of kata being performed as sharply as they are today, even in the video I posted.

So the "back in my day" claims can easily be dismissed.

In my experience, I'd probably have to walk into 10 dojos before even finding one person as who is as quick and sharp as the guys in these videos; and he or she is likely not even the highest person in the dojo.

Does that mean that everywhere I've been sucks? Have I been duped? If I'm not as quick and sharp as the 3rd dan in the video by the time I attain that rank (and I don't expect to be), does that mean it's all worthless?

I know the whole deal about not caring what others think, but I look at karate as a community... and social media is starting to make it look like a toxic one.

A very good point!

You see it in a lot of fields "touched" by the internet. I attribute it to two main causes: one, the old guys with pink-tinted glasses on the past. I am 54 so not a young bud anymore, but when I hear (a lot of) people of my generation complaining that the current music sucks, the current art sucks, the current society sucks etc, I mostly see people who are simply longing for their youth (not everybody: things change and sometimes not for the better - but far less than it seems on social media).

The second thing is fun, young people feels older times were legendary.

In a society which is ever safer and protective especially of the youth, said youth seems more and more to long for a wilder, mythical period with more freedom, danger and adventure, when giants roamed the earth and you could go and hunt a dragon down if you so wanted

I do sympathize - this is a pull that youth has had for the last 3000 years at least, and it has accelerated enormously in the latest decades.. but it's kinda odd to find people in their 20s describing what was for me is yesterday (say the 1990s) like a magical legendary period when all was possible. It wasn't

The fun of social media is that it's a place where people of very different generations and experiences can meet, which sometimes lead to funny results, like when a guy was remarking how lucky a certain Paul McCartney was to have been picked up by Kanye West - and that he sure would have a brilliant career for it!

 

[Steve]

The only way you can be bad at kata is if someone else arbitrarily determines you are bad.

There is no other measure of success.

And so you could ignore them and say you are good at kata.

Problem solved.

Case in point:

This guy is doing a bo kata. There’s a clear narrative, there’s intent, and he’s definitely committing to his movement and technique. And by whatever standards he is training for, I think he is considered “good”.

But I’m pretty sure most people here think he’s “bad”, even though he appears to check several boxes.

 

[Cri70]

The only way you can be bad at kata is if someone else arbitrarily determines you are bad.

There is no other measure of success.

And so you could ignore them and say you are good at kata.

Problem solved.

Or you could do kakedameshi and see who's the one that goes to the ER afterwards

 

[Cri70]

It is a different case when the template is traditional, self-defense-oriented karate jutsu. Here, the template is more stable. The ideal is not based on changing fashion, but the more constant template of combat effectiveness. How it works is more important than how it looks.

This is certainly true (and why if you truly learn a kata, it still works very well), but a very real problem is that's very hard to test combat effectiveness without combat, and even more you can't discern it from seeing someone performing it alone, Unless there's two people having a go at each other, seeing is all we can do?

 

[Cri70]

Case in point:

This guy is doing a bo kata. There’s a clear narrative, there’s intent, and he’s definitely committing to his movement and technique. And by whatever standards he is training for, I think he is considered “good”.

But I’m pretty sure most people here think he’s “bad”, even though he appears to check several boxes.

I have absolutely no parameters to say anything about being good or bad as I don't know anything on how to handle a stick, but the guys is damn athletic! The first jump alone would fit ok in a martial art movie. The sheer ability with the stick is very good, at least to my ignorant eyes.

I do have some questions - why one should jump that way (I mean, if the point is to retreat, can't you can just walk back and it's less effort?) or swirl the stick that way (maybe the idea is to confuse the opponent?) or move it back and forth one's body - I was under the impression that the business bit should always be towards your opponent. It kinds reminds me of the nunchuk masters who are incredible at tricks, as opposite to actually whacking someone with a nunchuck that requires much simpler movements overall (but often they are good _also_ at the simpler movements, of course. Showoff is fun and by itself means little). But as said, I dont know anything about sticks

 

[Gyakuto]

The only way you can be bad at kata is if someone else arbitrarily determines you are bad.

There is no other measure of success.

And so you could ignore them and say you are good at kata.

Problem solved.

You mean like gymnastics? Like dancing competitions? Like figure skating? Like The Chelsea Flower Show? Like Japanese calligraphy competitions? Like Dressage? Virtually every competitive endeavour relies on subjective judging from somebody else and, other than competitions where person attempt to permanently damage each other’s brains into unconsciousness or inflict unbearable pain into submission, everything is judged.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Case in point:

This guy is doing a bo kata. There’s a clear narrative, there’s intent, and he’s definitely committing to his movement and technique. And by whatever standards he is training for, I think he is considered “good”.

But I’m pretty sure most people here think he’s “bad”, even though he appears to check several boxes.

This guy is very good at what he's doing, except it's not MA. I agree also that there's intent, but the intent is to entertain and exhibit his dexterity. Most of the moves have no power nor combat application - indeed, they are counterproductive to combat. Many of the moves leave him extremely vulnerable without guard or immediate access to strike or block and make no sense in a combat scenario. His performance is 90% entertainment. At this he was very skilled.

 

[isshinryuronin]

very hard to test combat effectiveness without combat, and even more you can't discern it from seeing someone performing it alone

Each of the series in a kata can be isolated and applied on a resisting partner to access effectiveness of the bunkai. This was in fact how kata was created. If one has a good familiarity and strong knowledge and understanding of TMA kata, one can observe and discern/extrapolate how effective its execution would be in a combat scenario.