toughening the hand

[opr1945]

I have been watching videos on toughening the hand. Pushing your hand into a bucket filled with resistance seems very popular. My question is what substance should be in the bucket for best results? I see rice, soy beans, larger beans, sand, gravel and even rocks. Or is a progression using many of these best?

Thanks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most people use green mung beans to train iron palm. It's cold in nature that can balance the heat your body create.

 

[Same Trick]

Most people use green mung beans to train iron palm. It's cold in nature that can balance the heat your body create.

View attachment 31955

Eating mung-beans have a “cooling” effect, but touching them ?!

 

[Same Trick]

The traditional karate striking board(makiwara), is traditionally covered by a hemp bundle at the striking area, the hemp is said to have antibacterial properties and so protects the hands of the skin cuts

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Eating mung-beans have a “cooling” effect, but touching them ?!

It's like Chinese medicine, I cannot prove it by science. I was told by my MA teacher.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My question is what substance should be in the bucket for best results? I see rice, soy beans, larger beans, sand, gravel and even rocks. Or is a progression using many of these best?

A progression was often used. Details are unimportant unless you're thinking about engaging in this practice. This leads to the question of why you would want to? The price you pay to turn your fingers into lethal weapons is having deformed hands with limited dexterity. Probably not a good tradeoff in today's world. Even if you're willing to accept this result, it would be worthless unless your style emphasizes spear hand thrusts to vital areas as its major doctrine, and you actually plan to use them in actual combat. Without these last two conditions there is no reason to undergo such training.

Most people use green mung beans to train iron palm. It's cold in nature that can balance the heat your body create.

It may seem to be cooling as they are less abrasive (and damaging) when compared to other materials.

The traditional karate striking board(makiwara), is traditionally covered by a hemp bundle at the striking area, the hemp is said to have antibacterial properties and so protects the hands of the skin cuts

The makiwara I trained on was a 2x4 backed 1/3 of the way up with a 4x4 and had hardly any give at all. It was wrapped with rope of some kind of rough natural fiber. It did flay the skin off your knuckles but, hey, it grew back in a couple of days. Never had any problem with infection. IMO this kind of practice is more useful than the kind you're asking about.

 

[drop bear]

Corn flour

 

[Same Trick]

A progression was often used. Details are unimportant unless you're thinking about engaging in this practice. This leads to the question of why you would want to? The price you pay to turn your fingers into lethal weapons is having deformed hands with limited dexterity. Probably not a good tradeoff in today's world. Even if you're willing to accept this result, it would be worthless unless your style emphasizes spear hand thrusts to vital areas as its major doctrine, and you actually plan to use them in actual combat. Without these last two conditions there is no reason to undergo such training.

It may seem to be cooling as they are less abrasive (and damaging) when compared to other materials.

The makiwara I trained on was a 2x4 backed 1/3 of the way up with a 4x4 and had hardly any give at all. It was wrapped with rope of some kind of rough natural fiber. It did flay the skin off your knuckles but, hey, it grew back in a couple of days. Never had any problem with infection. IMO this kind of practice is more useful than the kind you're asking about.

The rope was probably of the traditional hemp made.
However nowadays most seem not to use that hemp rope thing, but rather some leather covered rubber “plate” attached as the striking area.
At least that what I punched at in the dojo I trained in Naha, bloody knuckles anyway, but healed quite quick

 

[Badhabits]

+100 for makiwara. The benefits of it are great. It toughens the hands, but that's more of a byproduct of proper usage. You can strike it with any part of the hand- knuckles, palm, shuto, back of hand, ridge hand. Also the forearms and elbows. So you can use it to condition all those parts. I've used 2x4's in the far past and they're a good starting point but not stiff enough after a few years of practice. I use a 4x4 post ripped down. Full 3.5x3.5 at bottom (ground level), tapered to 3/4 inch thick at the very top. Flexes but stiffer and pushes back more than a 2x4.
For padding you can use an old belt or dock line ( rope used to tie a boat to a dock cleat). Just wrap around the top. You can also kick and knee lower down the post. Both are easy to get and replace when needed. Also never had any issues with infection.

 

[Badhabits]

Another benefit is being able to attach a broom handle to it to act as a sort of arm. I use bungee cords so the "arm" will move around, snap back etc. Point it straight forward, allows you to practice clearing it as you move in to strike.

 

[Gyakuto]

I have been watching videos on toughening the hand. Pushing your hand into a bucket filled with resistance seems very popular. My question is what substance should be in the bucket for best results? I see rice, soy beans, larger beans, sand, gravel and even rocks. Or is a progression using many of these best?

Thanks.

We used burning coals and for those who had ready access, lava.

Why do you want to ‘toughen’ your hands? What are you planning to do with them?

 

[Cri70]

Can't see why anyone would want to do that. To me it's mostly nonsense, at least for practical karate. Especially nowadays.

If you have to hit something, spend the time to train yourself to instinctively hit it using the side of the hand or the bottom of the palm: ready made, super strong areas with solid bone structure, where the risk of breaking your hand (regardless of conditioning) is much much lower. We don't wear gloves.

Most "punches" in karate are either grabs or lunges to get your forearm (not just your hand, that's bloody difficult in action) in contact with some part of the opponent body to grab, move way, throw, joint lock: that's both to get in a position where you don't rely on your sight but rather the touch (which is way faster) and/or to get to whatever manipulation you need to do to break his structure (and set him up for a hand-side or palm-bottom strike, or just damage/dislocate the joint).

The only things that come to mind are the occasional punches to the body, which are typically to soft areas but, of course, may end up hitting a hard one in the heat of the moment. That's why even there (to me) it's far better to train yourself to use palm strikes instead.

 

[marvin8]

I have been watching videos on toughening the hand. Pushing your hand into a bucket filled with resistance seems very popular. My question is what substance should be in the bucket for best results? I see rice, soy beans, larger beans, sand, gravel and even rocks. Or is a progression using many of these best?

Thanks.

"You start with rice or sand inside a bag, then it goes to chickpeas, and then it goes to metal pellets. And then you increase the size of pellets. It's all so the hands can slowly adapt. Ever since I've been punching it, I've had no issues with my hands..."

No Limit Boxing AU
Jul 17, 2022

Knuckle conditioning used by three generations.Nikita Tszyu and grandfather Boris talk through a familiar routine once practiced by Kostya Tszyu.

Stephen Wonderboy Thompson
Mar 17, 2020

Today I bring in my pops and head coach Ray Thompson to give you all some tips on how to condition those fists. As you all know I broke both of my hands in my last fight but it took over 80 fights to do so. Yes, I've been training all my life but I have also supplemented extra hand conditioning techniques that I believe have protected my hands for this long.

 

[windwalker099]

It may seem to be cooling as they are less abrasive (and damaging) when compared to other materials.

Using mung beans was one of the first steps in the process.
Other materials were used in a progressive manner along with soaking the hand in Dit Da Jow (跌打酒)
the jow was heated as much as one could take...

Done to condition the hand, and bones, slapping a free hanging bag filled with small stones ,
and small bag filled with rice on a bench about waist high...
Slapped until all the rice was turned to dust.

as for results. Mike, my first CMA teacher recounting the events of a demo he
did with his teacher Gorge Long

Rong Dong / Mike Staples

The “Burning" Hand:

Ron Dong / Gorge Long

” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching
it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing
power. More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder
and give it one of those “slaps.
”

You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external
component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t
anything to worry about.

It was the second thing that was nasty... a sharp, stinging sensation that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But
the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed -- and
grew.

Now, I am not a gullible person, and it was going to take more than a trickle of this second
force through a phone book to convince me that this slapping stuff was anything much.

And so it was that Mr. Long deflected my punch with a slap…just a little too hard. And as a result, my arm locked out in front of me, as if frozen, while a searing pain moved through the flexor muscle compartment of my forearm.

My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweat forming on my face. Mr. Long continued to yack away at the other students, unaware of my predicament. I was struggling to breath, actually. I couldn’t move, actually.

Although not taught formally, did manage to develop it, with the same results used on others.
Either they stopped or could no longer use the arm slapped.

While in Hi, focusing on n-mantis...used to practice the signature Dill Sau (掉手) on banana trees.
using the finger to poke holes in the trunks of them...

Dill Sau (掉手)

In the long run probably not a good thing to do...
something I wonder about getting a little old, the things done when young.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Toughening the hands, by oneself, just by hitting things, can and will cause you issues in later life. Doing so with the proper treatments and herbal applications afterwards will help prevent issues as you get older

 

[windwalker099]

Toughening the hands, by oneself, just by hitting things, can and will cause you issues in later life. Doing so with the proper treatments and herbal applications afterwards will help prevent issues as you get older

While it might mitigate damage the conditioning was still very hard on the hands and other parts of the body.
Even with the "jow" and other herbs used.

Any combative practice will damage the body as part of the process, either directly or in-directly
The nature of the practice.

Breden Lai, a noted 7* mantis master
mentioned he would not teach "iron palm" feeling the training was not needed in this day and age,
it was too "damaging" to the hands.

In most cases it was only trained on one hand.... leaving the other one for ordinary use.

ymmv

 

[opr1945]

Lot to think about given here, most of which did not occur to me. After reflection I think I will pass on hand toughening. Thanks all.

Much enlightenment here.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am one of those who is not in favor of desensitizing the hands, feet, shins, etc. I do not hit the makiwara at all. At 63, I have issues with my hands already, such as 'trigger finger' (stenosing tenosynovitis) in one finger, which is quite painful at times when it refuses to open up anymore. I have neuropathy in my feet due to diabetes. They've suffered enough; I don't need to damage them any further.

We do practice a form of kote-kitae (hardening) in the dojo, but it's done lightly and infrequently, and I find it unlikely to create much in the way of permanent damage. It teaches technique as much or more than it desensitizes nerve endings, in my opinion.

What is useful is to prepare for the pain and shock of impact by practicing it. In other words, there's nothing to prepare you for being hit like being hit, for hitting like hitting. Understanding the application of power takes more than punching air (although that has its place too). You can have an intellectual understanding of power, but when you get hit, or when you hit someone, everything changes. Reality trumps theory in karate, I've found.

Therefore, there is a certain amount of violence in training, which in my opinion is absolutely required, especially for preparing for self-defense. But it doesn't have to be of the sort that was once practiced, unless one wishes to trade body hardening for old-age infirmities that perhaps could have been avoided.

 

[windwalker099]

What is useful is to prepare for the pain and shock of impact by practicing it. In other words, there's nothing to prepare you for being hit like being hit, for hitting like hitting. Understanding the application of power takes more than punching air (although that has its place too). You can have an intellectual understanding of power, but when you get hit, or when you hit someone, everything changes. Reality trumps theory in karate, I've found

The CMA teachers I knew. their practice were for one thing, and one thing only.
"fighting"

The training itself was designed to weed out those not able to complete it..
Iron Bell , Iron Body, Iron Arm, ect. all conditioning for the body.

Some of the older teachers here like"Kung Fu Wang" and others have gone through this type of training.
They might share some of their insights and training practices...
The do's and don'ts

Some interesting things one can do, and use from the practice

 

[Badhabits]

Well I've been hitting the makiwara consistently since my teens. In my forties now. I'm not hitting it hundreds of times per hand every day, but it's been consistent over the years. My knuckles are slightly enlarged and callouses in places others don't have them but that's about it. Never had a problem with my hands so far. But then I don't want deformed hands so have been careful to stop short of that.