So when did grappling get involved?

[bcbernam777]

That's ok, but anecodtal evidence goes both ways, so without some controls and other info in place, it is rather meaningless.

It was real enough for me at the time, unless your doubting the source? Anectodal evidence is just as valid as any other form of evidence, but I am not trying to prove anything to you, I am just letting you know that the majority of waht people say about WC v MMA is just pure rubbish, especially to those who say that WC holds no answers to MMA.

No, I'm more of a striker to be honest

Well your saying one thing your posts say something entirely different (infact this isn't the first time we have had this disscussion)

MMA is the best in the world... for MMA fights.

Within the confines and rules of MMA competitions maybe which are geared around that maybe, but in the reality of rela world fighting??? thats what I train for, I train for what to do when I am cornered on the street by a coule of thugs who want to lighten me of my wallet, end of story.

Now I suppose this should go both ways should it not? That you should keep your opinions on MMA to yourself?

Of course if everyone just kept there opinions to themself on every subject that they lacked 10-20 years experience in this would ber a message board of a dozen people talking to themselves with no intereaction....

Yes but the difference is I dont make comments about mixed martial arts itself (even though I have studied within MMA) I simply make comments about the things I have experaince in i.e. Wing Chun does have answers against BJJ, Boxing, MT, Karate etc etc... I dont make any direct comments on the quality or the abilitys of MMA, where as you seem to have no roblems comenting on the quality and the ability of Wing Chun, so its not the same.

How about the "Leitai" fights of China where the old masters fought to see who was the best under a set of rules. Guess those where just a game too and had no real value either? But didn't many styles of Kung Fu proove themselves through those?

The only competitions I know of where those that my Sifu competed in along with Wong Shun Leung, Bruce Lee, William Cheung etc, these competitions had no rules at all except for a gentlemens agreement not to kill each other, there where no rules and just incase you missed that [there where no rules]

If you think that MMA is the best thing since sliced bread then thats fine, indeed there are many fine MMA fighters, guys that I would not choose to mess with, but there ability is not so much a reflection on the superiortiy of MMA but rather a testament to the hours of dedicated training, there openess to their own ability and in general their large fighting spirit and of these caliber of men there are many to be found in every sphere of maritial art.

 

[Rook]

If you think that MMA is the best thing since sliced bread then thats fine, indeed there are many fine MMA fighters, guys that I would not choose to mess with, but there ability is not so much a reflection on the superiortiy of MMA but rather a testament to the hours of dedicated training, there openess to their own ability and in general their large fighting spirit and of these caliber of men there are many to be found in every sphere of maritial art.

This is the problem though - there are people who train just as long and just as hard as MMA fighters in many other displines, yet can't and don't win in no-rules challenges.

No rules challenges are not entirely dead, although the legal threats have made them much rarer than they once were - the Gracies, who are no longer even ranked as MMA fighters in any major promotion, still have a challenge for a no-rules fight with an offer of $10,000 to anyone outside of BJJ who can beat them. The Chute-Boxe Academy in Brazil has the same offer - $10,000, no rules. Hundreds of people have tried and none have suceeded.

 

[bcbernam777]

This is the problem though - there are people who train just as long and just as hard as MMA fighters in many other displines, yet can't and don't win in no-rules challenges.

I think you will find that this is a problem that even MMA would find within its own ranks, you seem to miss the entire point of my post. Effectiveness does not lie within a system, but within a man. If he cant make the grade then it obviously does not lie within the man to make the grade, regardless of the system. You know if you still think that it comes down to a system, then my friend you have a lot to learn.

No rules challenges are not entirely dead, although the legal threats have made them much rarer than they once were - the Gracies, who are no longer even ranked as MMA fighters in any major promotion, still have a challenge for a no-rules fight with an offer of $10,000 to anyone outside of BJJ who can beat them. The Chute-Boxe Academy in Brazil has the same offer - $10,000, no rules. Hundreds of people have tried and none have suceeded.

Well as you have admited, here is the strange thing, really the Gracies are not mma, are they?? and as for hundreds of people have tried and NONE have succeded, I know a Martial arts teacher who claims 400 + fights without a single loss. Dont you realise that these exagerated claims are nothing more than marketing fodder so that everyone will go "oh wow, I have to learn this invincible art so I will be invincible". If you had told me about a single fight that you had, had, credible, but to state that a school has had hundereds of challengers and NO ONE has succedded well I am sure its all well documented, because I they can prove it, I will start training there tomorow

 

[Rook]

I think you will find that this is a problem that even MMA would find within its own ranks, you seem to miss the entire point of my post. Effectiveness does not lie within a system, but within a man. If he cant make the grade then it obviously does not lie within the man to make the grade, regardless of the system. You know if you still think that it comes down to a system, then my friend you have a lot to learn.

The system is part of what makes a fighter effective - thats why we train in martial arts in the first place - to become better than we would be outside a given system.

Well as you have admited, here is the strange thing, really the Gracies are not mma, are they??

The Gracies launched modern mixed martial arts as we know it today. They are no longer top rank.

and as for hundreds of people have tried and NONE have succeded, I know a Martial arts teacher who claims 400 + fights without a single loss. Dont you realise that these exagerated claims are nothing more than marketing fodder so that everyone will go "oh wow, I have to learn this invincible art so I will be invincible".

Thats why we have to make a distinction between things proven on video and stuff that is simply atested to.

If you had told me about a single fight that you had, had, credible, but to state that a school has had hundereds of challengers and NO ONE has succedded well I am sure its all well documented, because I they can prove it, I will start training there tomorow

Easy enough. Thats the whole point of the Gracies in action tapes - they show you the video record of the more interesting of the challenges; their wins are all on tape. No one has beaten them in the challenges and there is a $10,000 prize for anyone who does.

 

[yipman_sifu]

The system is part of what makes a fighter effective - thats why we train in martial arts in the first place - to become better than we would be outside a given system.



The Gracies launched modern mixed martial arts as we know it today. They are no longer top rank.



Thats why we have to make a distinction between things proven on video and stuff that is simply atested to.



Easy enough. Thats the whole point of the Gracies in action tapes - they show you the video record of the more interesting of the challenges; their wins are all on tape. No one has beaten them in the challenges and there is a $10,000 prize for anyone who does.

The Gracie challenge had losses for sure. They used that video prove evidence in their victories only. I wonder what kind of mind people have to think that their stuff would work in a real street fight?. BJJ is a
Complementary stuff only. It can never be a full fighting strategy. It has a high success rate in competitions since it's a submission based fighting and fits MMA in general. People who likes MMA and UFC. There is a special place for posting about this stuff (MMA section). I don't know why people come in here and post against Wing Chun stuff. Since many people don't what is it about, they just start saying that it failed to be effective in the UFC. Although all the guys with Wing Chun participated in the UFC were not more than 4 to 5 guys. 2 of them were taught crap Wing Chun, and the rest took it as a complemetary stuff with their Greco Roman and Wrestling stuff. and in general, Wing Chun is deprived about 90% of it's techniques once it's in the ring. Please guys, that's enough.

 

[bcbernam777]

I could have responded more indepth with rook, but I think Rook (no disrespect intended) has made up his (or her) mind, and you know rook, I totally respect someone who can stick t the courage of their convictions, good for you, and I will show yuo no dishonour, except (and please bare in mind i am half cut to the wind) I will say dont believe all the hype that comes out of a MA camp because at the end of the day it is simply about self promotion which is kind of the point I was making about the guy wh claimed 400 + victoriys, sure 300+ may have been against drunks in a pub but hey whos counting the finner statistics?

The point i am trying to make rook is that no matter how good a system is, even wing chun, which i am quite proud in saying is a lot better than people realise, it all comes down to the student, what they take from their training, what they put in in and outside normal training hours, I will always fear a man who has trainined longer and harder in any style regardless of what knockers will say, there is a man to be feared for he has the fighting spirit

 

[Rook]

about self promotion which is kind of the point I was making about the guy wh claimed 400 + victoriys, sure 300+ may have been against drunks in a pub but hey whos counting the finner statistics?

Rickson Gracie's stats are made up, which is why they aren't counted on his official record. That is quite different than the overall number of challenge matches which are recorded.