in a fight with no rules what chances would have martial artists like Genki Sudo or other martial artist with smaller body size against the mirko filipovic or other athletically built fighters ? how much does getting bigger takes from speed and agility ?
size matters ???
- Thread starter shc89
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smaller size must have its advantages. but if the size is not a decisive factor why in most fighting sports there are those weigh categories. i asked my father once about it and he said like ''because there are no chances that those light weight guys could win a fight with heavyweights''.
yeah i've seen that there are few almost the same threads(too late) so i guess its a bother for you to write similar things again.
yeah i've seen that there are few almost the same threads(too late) so i guess its a bother for you to write similar things again.
still learning
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Hello, Off course size matters,bigger muscles,longer reach,most likely taller than you, more weight to back up there kicks,punches,and able to absorb more blows easy than a smaller person (to the body).
In a real fight? their eyes will not be that much bigger than yours, not to many guys can bullet proof their throats (striking here).
If they grab you and you are able to grab/bend/break a finger....their hands maybe bigger...but you should be able to escape?
Kicking the aveage joe in the shin with shoes on....this will hurt.,,your shoes do not have to be bigger than his shoes...
Does size matter...YES...your determintion (X-large) will make you into a cat! Ever trap a cat in the cornor? Become the cat!
In fishing? .....size matters, ordering a pizza? ...size matters... , in making balloons (bigger balls)...size matters
...BECOME THE CAT................Aloha (from a med-size guy)
PS:In football...xxx-large has it advantages...go Colts and Bears!! May the size of your efforts make you successfull...
In a real fight? their eyes will not be that much bigger than yours, not to many guys can bullet proof their throats (striking here).
If they grab you and you are able to grab/bend/break a finger....their hands maybe bigger...but you should be able to escape?
Kicking the aveage joe in the shin with shoes on....this will hurt.,,your shoes do not have to be bigger than his shoes...
Does size matter...YES...your determintion (X-large) will make you into a cat! Ever trap a cat in the cornor? Become the cat!
In fishing? .....size matters, ordering a pizza? ...size matters... , in making balloons (bigger balls)...size matters
...BECOME THE CAT................Aloha (from a med-size guy)
PS:In football...xxx-large has it advantages...go Colts and Bears!! May the size of your efforts make you successfull...
charyuop
Black Belt
There are categories because there are rules. Rules prevent from doing certain techniques or attack certain parts of the body. In a no rule match the thing changes alot. I have seen this thread in many forums now and as many other people I think that size does not matter. A well carried out technique can overcome the difference of size. If MA does not give me the tool to defend myself against a bigger and stronger opponent why do I train (and I am a short weakling)?
Slihn
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kingkong89
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size does not always matter it is how well you are able to defend yourself. in other words its not what you know it is how you apply it, i have seen fight where smaller guys with tech. have beat guys with pure muscle, but that does not mean who will win it is the one who does not want to give up who will win
Flatlander
Grandmaster
I believe that size does matter. I weigh 155, and have rolled with guys that weigh 310. What happens is they close, grab hold, and destroy. They need very little skill in order to do this. At my weight, I would need to be exceptionally strong in order to strike so as to completely incapacitate a 310 pound person, and completely incapacitate is what I'd need to do. Once they've got their mitts on me, I'm toast. No amount of grappling abilities will overcome that strength and weight difference.
IMO and experience, size definitely matters, if size is characterized not only by weight but by strength as well.
IMO and experience, size definitely matters, if size is characterized not only by weight but by strength as well.
Adept
Master Black Belt
When all other things are equal, the biggest guy wins.
Really, it's that simple.
Being a bigger, more muscular person does not negatively impact on either your speed or flexibility (at least, not until you start hitting Mr Universe levels of huge...) and gives a lot of benefits.
Really, it's that simple.
Being a bigger, more muscular person does not negatively impact on either your speed or flexibility (at least, not until you start hitting Mr Universe levels of huge...) and gives a lot of benefits.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Even at "the Mr. Universe"-level of big and muscular, the greater size and strength means (roughly) a proportionate increase in speed and power. Also if a person is using a full range of motion in their weight training, it should actually enhance rather than inhibit their flexibility. Watch Top Platz, former "Mr.Universe"/World Amateur and Pro Bodybuilding champion and world class powerlifter who had the greatest leg development in history, doing both front and side splits and you'll see what I mean.
Kwan Jang said:
I think Adept's right, in this specific sense: world-championship bodybuilders these days routinely take complex steroid cocktails, human growth hormone, weapons-grade diuretics etc. etc. to produce that uneartly level of hypertrophy and vascularity. Leaving the medical and ethical aspects out of the picture, the fact is that anabolic substances can induce muscle hyperdevelopment but have little or no effect on tendon and connective tissue size; a steroidal monster may have the muscular capacity to bench 6-800lbs or more of weight, but control of those muscles is diminished because of the relative weakness of the associated ligaments and tendon strength. That's one big reason why these guys routinely inflict big muscle tears on themselves (Dorian Yates did it enough times that he basically had to retire as a result, and a number of lesser lights in pro bodybuilding, like Mike Quinn, have gone the same route): what's torn isn't the muscle, typically, but the insertion tendons, coming in some cases right off the bone (ouch!!!!) In an activity requiring complex timing and flowing movement, a big muscle/weak tendon/ligament ratio is a definite liablity, because you are basically tryinging to mobilize heavier muscles using relatively weak controlling apparatus. This means you'll probably be slower, maybe a lot slower, than someone whose connective tissues are in a more natural strength relation to their muscle size...
Tom Platz did, by his own admission, use steroids, but on a much more occasional and casual basis than people like Yates and the current crop of literally unbelievable Weider-circuit pros. The discrepancy between muscle size and controlling-tissue strength in his case is bound to have been way less than with Yates and his successors...
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Though I totally agree that the steroid-growth hormone problem in bodybuilding went completely out of control after the NPC and IFBB dropped their drug testing programs in the early '90's (FAR worst than before they began testing in the first place), I will bring up a few points. Though some of the ligament and tendon injuries could be a result of drug use, the vast majority of the athletes who have experienced them have been the proponents of high-intensity, low volume training. It's been well documented that this type of "heavy duty" training does increase muscle strength and size above that of connective tissue.
I myself have (unfortunately) experienced this type of injury from this type of training regimen even though I was/am drug free. Because of this, I brought back in more conventional training (higher volume) into my routine though I do mix in the lower volume high intensity work.
I can definitely see how a detrimental ratio of connective tissue strength to muscle would up the injury rate, but honestly I can't see how that would negatively effect either speed or stretch. Even with the MUCH higher drug use though, NONE of the guys of the modern era rival Platz's leg development. His athleticism, stretch, and power were amazing (ex. 600 lbs. full squats for 40 reps with front and side splits between sets) and though I would agree that ANY performance drug use is too much, Tom's dosage was probably comparable to that used by many of today's pro baseball, NFL, and NBA players.
Even I am/was at least as big/massive and strong as Mike Quinn in his competitive heyday. I have pictues in the photos section of martial arts planet (if you can find a time when the site is not having tech. difficulties-it's a shame) with me doing vertical kicks, jump split kicks ect. and I have well over 30" thighs and 20" calves and have squatted over 800 lbs and benched 545 for reps. Not to brag about how wonderful I think I am, but to show that muscle size does not decrease your abilities (or if you feel you must see my speed, check out the Ernie Reyes DYNAMIC DEMONSTATION DVD's by Century).
I myself have (unfortunately) experienced this type of injury from this type of training regimen even though I was/am drug free. Because of this, I brought back in more conventional training (higher volume) into my routine though I do mix in the lower volume high intensity work.
I can definitely see how a detrimental ratio of connective tissue strength to muscle would up the injury rate, but honestly I can't see how that would negatively effect either speed or stretch. Even with the MUCH higher drug use though, NONE of the guys of the modern era rival Platz's leg development. His athleticism, stretch, and power were amazing (ex. 600 lbs. full squats for 40 reps with front and side splits between sets) and though I would agree that ANY performance drug use is too much, Tom's dosage was probably comparable to that used by many of today's pro baseball, NFL, and NBA players.
Even I am/was at least as big/massive and strong as Mike Quinn in his competitive heyday. I have pictues in the photos section of martial arts planet (if you can find a time when the site is not having tech. difficulties-it's a shame) with me doing vertical kicks, jump split kicks ect. and I have well over 30" thighs and 20" calves and have squatted over 800 lbs and benched 545 for reps. Not to brag about how wonderful I think I am, but to show that muscle size does not decrease your abilities (or if you feel you must see my speed, check out the Ernie Reyes DYNAMIC DEMONSTATION DVD's by Century).
Between a larger and smaller fighter who are similar in skill, fitness, strategy etc, the larger fighter will ussually win. The greater the discrepancy in ANY area, the greater the discrepancy in the others will need to be to compensate for it.
That said, smaller fighters can defeat much larger ones. Good examples in MMA include:
Royce Gracie (178) submits Akebono (484) (Akebono was a sucessful sumo wrestler and was in good shape for his sport)
Genki Sudo (160) submits Eric Esch (390) (Note: Esch is an excellent practitioner of boxing with an IBC world championship belt and a superb record)
Minowa (180) submits Eric Esch (390) see above
Minowa (180) submits Paolo Cesar Silva (390)
That said, smaller fighters can defeat much larger ones. Good examples in MMA include:
Royce Gracie (178) submits Akebono (484) (Akebono was a sucessful sumo wrestler and was in good shape for his sport)
Genki Sudo (160) submits Eric Esch (390) (Note: Esch is an excellent practitioner of boxing with an IBC world championship belt and a superb record)
Minowa (180) submits Eric Esch (390) see above
Minowa (180) submits Paolo Cesar Silva (390)
Hmmm, that's one on me, since that's the kind of training I do also. I'm at a huge genetic disadvantage, thoughclassic ectomorph, light skeletal structure, small wrist diameter, the usual kisses of death for serious size, but maybe that has a side benefit in that my muscle and connective tissue strength can't be that out of line.
I was totally unaware of this problem! But as I say, as a severe hardgainer it's not the kind of thing that I'm likely to run into... it's strange, but yes, it makes sense... it just had never occurred to me before...
Whoa, then you are mighty, KwJ! Quinn was massive and strong.
Thanks for the pointerthat would be a real kick! I'll check out the MA Planet site (I don't think I've ever been there, but maybe I'll hit it lucky...)
I wasn't so much thinking of stretch when I posted earlier; I was thinking more along the lines that the more out of proportion the relation between muscle mass and connective tissue strength was, the harder it would be for the tendons and ligaments to supply sufficient force to move the lifter's/MAist's limbs rapidly. From what you say, this isn't really a problem, though it seems, just thinking of it abstractly, that it ought to be...?
pstarr
Master Black Belt
Size means very little except in sex...and sports. In a real fight, it's skill that makes the difference.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Yup!
The way I think of it is:
When strength is equal, technique winds
When technique is equal, strength wins.
Everything else is a sliding scale.
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Rook, I strongly agree with your post, except when it comes to glorifying Eric "Butterbean" Esch.
Rook, I strongly agree with your post, except when it comes to glorifying Eric "Butterbean" Esch.
I figured someone might object.
Though Esch was never know for his technical prowess, his record is very good, and he does have a number of impressive wins, although he also had a humiliating decision loss to an aging Larry Holmes.- Thread Starter
- #18
but also bigger people are easier to hit also. and how come that too big body size doesnt impact your agility and speed. for example have you seen the fight between mirko filipovic and bob sapp. bob's pure strength didn't help him there. i think that the best thing is the combination of body strength and speed,if you get me.
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
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