Siu Lim Tau Comparison

lansao said:
That cage in particular has more than enough room but in tighter spaces our t-step also proves useful. That said, it's hard to debate these finer points on a forum. If we were in class and studying this scenario, we would break it down and moment by moment analyze movements applying our Wing Chun principles and feeling it work. Then we would practice it. I'm confident there are many solutions to each of these scenarios, and I'll throw out there that an elbow may be one of them.

~ Alan
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The point was to highlight the problem with the center guard itself so as to fix it, not just put a band-aid on it by running away or resorting to other emergency techniques.
 
LFJ said:
The point was to highlight the problem with the center guard itself so as to fix it, not just put a band-aid on it by running away or resorting to other emergency techniques.
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I think words are failing us here and that's ok. When you have time, a brief demonstration video might be helpful (shadowing is ok).

~ Alan
 
@Juany118

LFJ said:
At 2:31, he literally steps backward away from the opponent and toward the camera!
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To further clarify this for you, from the position at 2:30, consider advancing with the right leg while doing that jat-da. This will cut right into him, eating space, while you orient your entire structure behind your line of force into him. This will disrupt his balance and facing, hindering his ability to reface and counter effectively while you attack straight forward on this angle with body mass behind your strikes.

What your guy is doing is stepping his left foot out, followed by his right foot back. This is moving himself away from/ around the opponent. It is leaving a ton of space free and taking body mass away from the direction of his line of force.

As he continues sidestepping while maintaining distance he's worried about the guy being able to reface and punch with his other arm, precisely because he's allowing that space in the first place. That's why he has to continue stepping circles around him and doing stuff with his hands. He's not eating space and disabling the opponent effectively.

 
lansao said:
I think words are failing us here and that's ok. When you have time, a brief demonstration video might be helpful (shadowing is ok).

~ Alan
Click to expand...

I think it was pretty well covered in that thread, but I don't expect you to read through it.

Maybe try this post.
 
@LFJ
If you watch TWC folks doing their wooden dummy form...you see the same kind of thing...circling around vs cutting in WRT footwork. At least that's what I've seen. I'm not certain if this is what you are referring to, but, if this guy in the video is a master under that lineage then I bet his dummy footwork matches what he is displaying in the posted vid.
 
@wckf92

He's a grandmaster apparently, and this is his dummy form:


Seriously though, all the TWC forms teach the same type of stepping and maintaining distance. It's part of their strategy. Quite obvious.
 
wckf92 said:
@LFJ
If you watch TWC folks doing their wooden dummy form...you see the same kind of thing...circling around vs cutting in WRT footwork. At least that's what I've seen. I'm not certain if this is what you are referring to, but, if this guy in the video is a master under that lineage then I bet his dummy footwork matches what he is displaying in the posted vid.
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The man in the video is Master Keith Mazza. He is a closed door student of GM William Cheung and is the official NA Liaison of the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association.

I am wondering something here though, maybe we have an issue with semantics/perspective? I see what Sifu Keith is doing as moving in a straight line (though admittedly on an angle) because of the footwork involved and the fact distance is being closed. Is the reason some are saying "circling" around because instead of immediately "cutting in" he is "flanking"? If so perhaps I am being a touch pedantic when it comes to terminology.
 
Juany118 said:
The man in the video is Master Keith Mazza. He is a closed door student of GM William Cheung and is the official NA Liaison of the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association.

I am wondering something here though, maybe we have an issue with semantics/perspective? I see what Sifu Keith is doing as moving in a straight line (though admittedly on an angle) because of the footwork involved and the fact distance is being closed. Is the reason some are saying "circling" around because instead of immediately "cutting in" he is "flanking"? If so perhaps I am being a touch pedantic when it comes to terminology.
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Hi juany. thx for the info on the dude.
As for the semantics...don't know/can't say. TBH I kinda see LFJ's point on this.

When I see TWC practitioners use footwork, it always seem they circle around their opponent...keeping their centers exposed, groin is exposed due to the open nature of their legs as they stutter-step around to what you call blind side.
If it works for you then rock on bro...
 
Juany118 said:
I am wondering something here though, maybe we have an issue with semantics/perspective? I see what Sifu Keith is doing as moving in a straight line (though admittedly on an angle) because of the footwork involved and the fact distance is being closed. Is the reason some are saying "circling" around because instead of immediately "cutting in" he is "flanking"? If so perhaps I am being a touch pedantic when it comes to terminology.
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Not semantics, I think. TWC angles off from the incoming line of force. Then to continue on the blindside, you sidestep again and keep angling. If it goes on too long you won't end up on the other side of the room, but back where you started!

If that's not circling because you're taking straight-line steps each time, maybe call it hexadecagoning? In any case, it is around the opponent while maintaining distance/ leaving space requiring more handwork against the arm.
 
Juany118 said:
He is a closed door student of GM William Cheung
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By the way, I wonder where this term "closed door student" came from. Do they just mean they attended private classes?

In Chinese, guanmen dizi (关门弟子) means literally the disciple who closes the door, and refers to the last disciple of a master, so they figuratively "close the door" as they are the last to enter. It's a verb, not an adjective like "closed door" and doesn't mean anything super special.

I think "closed door disciple" is a misunderstanding of the Chinese term that Westerners have taken to sound cool, like a privileged student who gets all the best secrets behind closed doors. But then again, that was basically Cheung's claim of his relationship with YM, wasn't it?
 
wckf92 said:
Hi juany. thx for the info on the dude.
As for the semantics...don't know/can't say. TBH I kinda see LFJ's point on this.

When I see TWC practitioners use footwork, it always seem they circle around their opponent...keeping their centers exposed, groin is exposed due to the open nature of their legs as they stutter-step around to what you call blind side.
If it works for you then rock on bro...
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The thing is though that is largely only done on entry, and if done properly you aren't inviting a kick to "happy time". As a matter of fact in my school we purposefully will take shots at "happy time" if our training partner has poor position to ram the point home. stutter stepping is also, basically, a mistake often made by people who are being flat footed, or dragging their feet.

Once you "get there" your goal is to essentially use your attacks to maintain the flank position. You can see that a few times here in a real fight, not "drill"/demo. The one with the pony tail is Sifu Jerry Devone.

 
LFJ said:
By the way, I wonder where this term "closed door student" came from. Do they just mean they attended private classes?

In Chinese, guanmen dizi (关门弟子) means literally the disciple who closes the door, and refers to the last disciple of a master, so they figuratively "close the door" as they are the last to enter. It's a verb, not an adjective like "closed door" and doesn't mean anything super special.

I think "closed door disciple" is a misunderstanding of the Chinese term that Westerners have taken to sound cool, like a privileged student who gets all the best secrets behind closed doors. But then again, that was basically Cheung's claim of his relationship with YM, wasn't it?
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Yes, he was the first private student of GM Cheung. In this particular case though it is confirmed by GM Cheung and he actually regularly visits Sifu Mazza's school.

As for the moving to blind side. As I said, that is something you do initially OR to recover position if your attacks and counters don't allow you to maintain position. If you are constantly zoning to a flank throughout an entire fight you are either doing something wrong or your opponent is simply better than you are in some way. In so far as what it's called I refer to it as flanking. An analogy for what is done is actually on the battle field. When possible you wish to attack the enemy flank as they can not bring their full firepower to bear against you. The way you maintain that flank position and not allow the enemy to adjust their line is by properly coordinating your firepower.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
LFJ said:
I think it was pretty well covered in that thread, but I don't expect you to read through it.

Maybe try this post.
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I understood the thread. The wedge in the thread is equilateral, ours is not
Juany118 said:
The thing is though that is largely only done on entry, and if done properly you aren't inviting a kick to "happy time". As a matter of fact in my school we purposefully will take shots at "happy time" if our training partner has poor position to ram the point home. stutter stepping is also, basically, a mistake often made by people who are being flat footed, or dragging their feet.

Once you "get there" your goal is to essentially use your attacks to maintain the flank position. You can see that a few times here in a real fight, not "drill"/demo. The one with the pony tail is Sifu Jerry Devone.

Click to expand...
Here is a good reference on the radial positioning area that helps explain where/why we cut in.

Wing Chun Kung Fu Radial Positioning Area

Here are the other concepts:

Wing Chun Kung Fu Concepts and Prinicples

~ Alan
 
guy b said:
What is the cutting punch then KPM? Can you show an example?
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Imagine you are doing the Pak Da drill......one person throwing continuous alternating punches while the other does continuous alternating Pak Sau. Then at some point rather than a Pak Sau, you do your own punch that crosses the same spot you would have contacted with the Pak Sau so that it functions to take their punch off of the line in the same way....... while you are hitting. So your forearm is "cutting" across the line or "excluding" their punch from the line. It is still a straight punch, not a whipping punch.

Another way to think about it would be to picture deflecting their straight punch with a Jum Sau and adding forward motion that turns into a punch at pretty much the same time.
 
KPM said:
Imagine you are doing the Pak Da drill......one person throwing continuous alternating punches while the other does continuous alternating Pak Sau. Then at some point rather than a Pak Sau, you do your own punch that crosses the same spot you would have contacted with the Pak Sau so that it functions to take their punch off of the line in the same way....... while you are hitting. So your forearm is "cutting" across the line or "excluding" their punch from the line. It is still a straight punch, not a whipping punch.

Another way to think about it would be to picture deflecting their straight punch with a Jum Sau and adding forward motion that turns into a punch at pretty much the same time.
Click to expand...

Do you have a clip to show?
 
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Phillip Bayer

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Interesting read!

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