Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[wtxs]

I'll get the popcorn ready.

~ Alan

Heyyy, that was MY line ... you may use it as long as I get to have my beer.

 

[lansao]

Can you describe how this guard would function in terms of this scenario?

I can offer a few solutions to the scenario but will do it in a video. The short answer is our rear wu does have a second line of defense with its elbow but our feet play a big role in solving. We don't block, we don't wedge (some radial strikes and a few corner cases excluded), we deflect and yield.

What is the purpose of this yielding, is it defensive?

Yielding is defensive but it is also offensive in the sense that it helps prevent us from getting jammed up and enables striking. A good example of yielding is the bull fighter who steps off the line of force of the bull. If I'm feeling a lot of pressure on my bong elbow (or downward weight from my chi sao partner's heavy fook sao) I'll yield to that force in a way that's advantageous to me. Assuming my opponent is bigger, stronger, and has more energy than me, I want to avoid getting caught up in a force against force scenario. This approach addresses those concerns in a way that works for me and that I appreciate.

Our arms behave like antennae picking up signals and vanishing from our opponents contact (minimizing tells where possible) while maintaining good structure and posture. When we feel pressure, we don't push back but reposition and yield to the force while preferably cutting across and incorporating simultaneous striking. There's a lot more on this, feel like I'm not doing it justice.

~ Alan

 

[wtxs]

Yielding is defensive but it is also offensive in the sense that it helps prevent us from getting jammed up and enables striking. A good example of yielding is the bull fighter who steps off the line of force of the bull. If I'm feeling a lot of pressure on my bong elbow (or downward weight from my chi sao partner's heavy fook sao) I'll yield to that force in a way that's advantageous to me. Assuming my opponent is bigger, stronger, and has more energy than me, I want to avoid getting caught up in a force against force scenario. This approach addresses those concerns in a way that works for me and that I appreciate.

Our arms behave like antennae picking up signals and vanishing from our opponents contact (minimizing tells where possible) while maintaining good structure and posture. When we feel pressure, we don't push back but reposition and yield to the force while preferably cutting across and incorporating simultaneous striking. There's a lot more on this, feel like I'm not doing it justice.

~ Alan

You are right .. receiving/intercept, redirecting and simultaneous counter attacking are the finer points as such will never be realize with words.

 

[lansao]

You are right .. receiving/intercept, redirecting and simultaneous counter attacking are the finer points as such will never be realize with words.

It's kind of a feel thing.

 

[Juany118]

This is exactly what LFJ is describing above

Here is what he said...

Here I'm not talking about just driving force from the hip/elbow, but the tactical element of using the elbows within the fighting strategy.

In TWC for example, you appear to keep distance as you zone to the blindside...

Clearly Sifu Keith is not keeping his distance. If you look at this feet and not his upper body you see he goes in, only on an angle but he is "in there".

Does TWC not zone to the blindside doing hand techniques to control the opponent's arm, ideally at the elbow, and striking with the other hand?

That is one possibility, such as when he demonstrates the chun sau however very often, as he describes verbally, a bong can be used as well. In either case you aren't really "controlling" the arm, you are simply displacing it, and thus the opponents structure and balance because of where you are striking and you are very much striking, if it is there. If it isn't there then the bong or chun easily spirals into a strike.

That's what I mean by maintaining distance, because as I said, it's out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to use the elbows tactically in lin-siu-daai-da.

If you watch his body positioning he is moving forward, admittedly on an angle, BUT it is not only forward movement that is closing the gap. again look at the distance of his feet to the opponent, not the upper body. If you do that you see the upper body has more distance because Sifu Keith has maintained proper structure and balance but he is demonstrating that the point of the entry is to displace the balance of the opponent, thus creating a vulnerable opponent who can not effectively counter attack you (the important bit is 1:00-1:40, look at the feet position. When he does so, if you focus on Sifu Keith his energy is going directly at the opponent because ultimately he has only added a small side step to his forward movement. Essentially he went from a front stance to a side neutral stance via forward motion. he is moving forward in such a way that upon impact with the opponent he is in a "side neutral" forward facing stance and his energy is traveling towards the opponent.

My main point here is to simply emphasize that he is indeed closing the gap, heck it is vital to close that gap because of you don't do so you will have to keep dealing with your opponent being able to effectively punch you and put you in a position where if/when that other hand is coming it requires him to either punch across the body or rotate his stance, which will be difficult due to the fact he is now very much off balance because of your force of entry.

Not saying your method won't work for everyone, but in order to use the elbow as I've described, you must enter along your line of force. From a tactical angle, this will cut the opponent off causing them to be turned as we move forward.

I will agree with this, sorta, you can't do exactly what you have described but it does not mean that there is no tactical use of the elbow or that the line of force is so significantly altered.

The TWC range and direction of movement won't allow it. To end up on the blindside, you must use lateral footwork to circle out and use hands to control their arm so you can hit them. This leaves a lot of space to allow them recovery options since their body is unaffected by it, leading to more sidestepping and more hand techniques to stop their arms.

Again you aren't circling out, you are stepping into your opponent, simply on a SLIGHT angle. Whether with the bong or the chun you are moving forward with force and he was indeed effected by the maneuver because you have taken his balance away from him. Now if your position is optimal you can actually have the bong, chun, whatever, spiral/flow into a strike, and yes attack with the other limb as well. If it isn't optimal then you have that ready to address the other limb because even if off balance it will be coming. The only way he will be able to "recover" is (again look at the distance between the feet) you permit him to essentially retreat to get his legs firmly under him to reestablish structure. That isn't going to happen because you keep moving in working him. It isn't really a matter of one or the other, its a matter of where are you after your entry, that is shown largely in 2:00-2:40.

in either case however the elbows are being used tactically. In on case focused on punching/striking, in the other focused on either disturbing the structure/balance, or striking if the situation warrants it after the initial entry, while getting yourself out of the "kill box."

Now for my now standard disclaimer... this is not to say one method is better than the others, works for one person and not another etc. It is only to demonstrate that while the elbows may be serving a different tactical purpose, a tactical purpose still exists.

 

[anerlich]

Hmm, I've been looking, but I've found elbow focus to be one of the main things missing from many YM lineages.

Here I'm not talking about just driving force from the hip/elbow, but the tactical element of using the elbows within the fighting strategy.

In TWC for example, you appear to keep distance as you zone to the blindside, requiring more techniques to be done out at the wrist and hand to control the opponent's arm while you strike with the other hand. No use of elbow. Out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to.

In the TWC I do, I'm perfectly capable of using elbow force while moving to the blind side ... or not. If I'm using garn, bil, bon, tseun or the cutting/capping/intercepting punch on the opponent's guard/attack, I can't really apply force with anything BUT the elbow. I'm definitely all about moving/turning the opponent rather than moving myself around him.

I would only yield/retreat if I got jammed up somehow. You can't just yield, you have to use some force to redirect. No force, no effect on the opponent.

Some videos I've seen do have the defender sort of dance around the punch without really trying to affect the opponent's structure, but that is definitely not MY intent.

 

[Juany118]

In the TWC I do, I'm perfectly capable of using elbow force while moving to the blind side ... or not. If I'm using garn, bil, bon, tseun or the cutting/capping/intercepting punch on the opponent's guard/attack, I can't really apply force with anything BUT the elbow. I'm definitely all about moving/turning the opponent rather than moving myself around him.

I would only yield/retreat if I got jammed up somehow. You can't just yield, you have to use some force to redirect. No force, no effect on the opponent.

Some videos I've seen do have the defender sort of dance around the punch without really trying to affect the opponent's structure, but that is definitely not MY intent.

I forgot to add something in my long response that you brought to mind, though of course feel free to correct me if you feel I am "off" here. If I am stepping to the blind side myself it is usually just for one of two reasons.

1. I am responding to an initial and sudden attack.
2. I need to do so in order to recover proper position/control of the fight that I have some how lost.

Regardless though the mere fact that I may move to the blind side on my own, vs finding/maintaining the blind side via disrupting the structure of the opponent, doesn't mean that the elbow is not the A. Focus of force or B. tactically employed.

 

[lansao]

Can you describe how this guard would function in terms of this scenario?

Hey guy, sharing that video (had to put kid to bed first which also explains the lack of talking!). Forgive any sloppiness, my blades went dull as a result of my onset dad-bod! I'm happy to report I'm back to my regular cardio but sad to report it will take me a few months to undo the damage!

I think I read the scenario alright in terms of the lead hand (what it called man sao) being compromised and rear hand being left alone to protect against an incoming attack. The most important note here is the footwork stepping off the line of force as it truly serves as our first line of defense. Small note, I try to highlight this up front but I use the right edge of the fireplace as a placeholder for my center and central lines.

In the first example I share one of an infinite number of potential follow-ups from the arm being pushed down. The arm doing the pushing, the amount of force, and other factors need to be taken into consideration but here's one way to defend against one way to push the arm down.

In the second, I focus on being pulled to my right. Depending on the nature of the push/pull it could go to other positions (like an inside bong sao) in order to maintain contact. I roll my hands after the initial defense to indicate follow up takes place from here.

In the third, it's a little tricky to see, but I tut sao off the fut sao which helps scrape the lopping hand off my arm and allows me to recapture.

In the fourth example, I quan and at one point I chamber my left arm holding up a rear arm tan sao which helps to deflect the incoming opponents right strike (this is just to demonstrate that the tan sao itself is helpful in deflection but it takes a little imagination to see the oncoming right arm). Quan sao is useful there too making arm-break follow-ups a little more accessible. The yielding movement here is really performed by the bong sao where when feeling the force on my hand towards my center the tan sao yeilds to bong sao.

Hope this helps contribute to the discussion. That said, out of respect for the original intent of the thread should this be moved to another? The original discussion was focused on differences in the Sil Lum Tao between lineages.

~ Alan

 

[LFJ]

I'm referring to the punch that can cut inward across the opponent's punch from above to "exclude" it from the attacking line as you do your own punch.

If it's what CSL calls a "whipping punch", that's not something I do.

That requires taking more of a round line that drops the elbow in at the last moment to straighten out and cut into the opponent's arm from the outside. It's a pretty deliberate technique to be used when you see the opportunity.

The elbow ideas I employ are more of an automatic thing that should be built into all of our straight-line attacks. It's not a specific technique.

 

[LFJ]

If you look at this feet and not his upper body you see he goes in, only on an angle but he is "in there".

If the angle is off to the side, then you aren't angling into them, by definition.

again look at the distance of his feet to the opponent, not the upper body. If you do that you see the upper body has more distance because Sifu Keith has maintained proper structure and balance...

"The upper body has more distance".

That's exactly what I said. It's maintaining distance while the footwork angles off from the incoming line of force and his own target.

From my perspective, the feet are maintaining distance too. At no point does he direct a line of force from his body as a unit into the target. He's always staying out and sidestepping, in a side-neutral stance as you said, while doing techniques with the hands at the guy's arm.

The video shows exactly what I was saying. And my point being that this makes the elbow ideas in lin-siu-daai-da impossible.

you can't do exactly what you have described but it does not mean that there is no tactical use of the elbow or that the line of force is so significantly altered.

It is significantly altered enough to where the tactical use of the elbow in lin-siu-daai-da is impossible.

Now if your position is optimal you can actually have the bong, chun, whatever, spiral/flow into a strike, and yes attack with the other limb as well.

Yup, just like I said. Because you are maintaining distance and angling off, you have to use many hand techniques because the elbow use in lin-siu-daai-da is impossible with this approach given the range and direction of movement.

 

[LFJ]

In the TWC I do, I'm perfectly capable of using elbow force while moving to the blind side ... or not. If I'm using garn, bil, bon, tseun or the cutting/capping/intercepting punch on the opponent's guard/attack, I can't really apply force with anything BUT the elbow.

Elbow force is exactly what I said I was not talking about.

 

[guy b]

Hey guy, sharing that video (had to put kid to bed first which also explains the lack of talking!). Forgive any sloppiness, my blades went dull as a result of my onset dad-bod! I'm happy to report I'm back to my regular cardio but sad to report it will take me a few months to undo the damage!

I think I read the scenario alright in terms of the lead hand (what it called man sao) being compromised and rear hand being left alone to protect against an incoming attack. The most important note here is the footwork stepping off the line of force as it truly serves as our first line of defense. Small note, I try to highlight this up front but I use the right edge of the fireplace as a placeholder for my center and central lines.

In the first example I share one of an infinite number of potential follow-ups from the arm being pushed down. The arm doing the pushing, the amount of force, and other factors need to be taken into consideration but here's one way to defend against one way to push the arm down.

In the second, I focus on being pulled to my right. Depending on the nature of the push/pull it could go to other positions (like an inside bong sao) in order to maintain contact. I roll my hands after the initial defense to indicate follow up takes place from here.

In the third, it's a little tricky to see, but I tut sao off the fut sao which helps scrape the lopping hand off my arm and allows me to recapture.

In the fourth example, I quan and at one point I chamber my left arm holding up a rear arm tan sao which helps to deflect the incoming opponents right strike (this is just to demonstrate that the tan sao itself is helpful in deflection but it takes a little imagination to see the oncoming right arm). Quan sao is useful there too making arm-break follow-ups a little more accessible. The yielding movement here is really performed by the bong sao where when feeling the force on my hand towards my center the tan sao yeilds to bong sao.

Hope this helps contribute to the discussion. That said, out of respect for the original intent of the thread should this be moved to another? The original discussion was focused on differences in the Sil Lum Tao between lineages.

~ Alan

With respect, I don't think angling off to the side is going to be fast enough with an incoming right hand. The original thread was talking about a situation where your lead hand slapped down and a right hand incoming.

 

[KPM]

If it's what CSL calls a "whipping punch", that's not something I do.

----No, not the "whipping punch."

That requires taking more of a round line that drops the elbow in at the last moment to straighten out and cut into the opponent's arm from the outside. It's a pretty deliberate technique to be used when you see the opportunity.

---Agreed.

The elbow ideas I employ are more of an automatic thing that should be built into all of our straight-line attacks. It's not a specific technique.

---Understood.

 

[LFJ]

@KPM

Are you talking about the "excluding" and "including" type of things I just posted in the Cutting Punch thread? If so, see my comments there.

 

[guy b]

What is the cutting punch then KPM? Can you show an example?

 

[lansao]

With respect, I don't think angling off to the side is going to be fast enough with an incoming right hand. The original thread was talking about a situation where your lead hand slapped down and a right hand incoming.

That's fair, it was hard for me to trust it at first. After practicing for a year or so and optimizing eye placement, tightening distance traveled, energy committed, etc. I can say from experience it is more than fast enough and worth experimenting with before disqualifying.

~ Alan

 

[Juany118]

If the angle is off to the side, then you aren't angling into them, by definition.



"The upper body has more distance".

That's exactly what I said. It's maintaining distance while the footwork angles off from the incoming line of force and his own target.

From my perspective, the feet are maintaining distance too. At no point does he direct a line of force from his body as a unit into the target. He's always staying out and sidestepping, in a side-neutral stance as you said, while doing techniques with the hands at the guy's arm.

The video shows exactly what I was saying. And my point being that this makes the elbow ideas in lin-siu-daai-da impossible.



It is significantly altered enough to where the tactical use of the elbow in lin-siu-daai-da is impossible.



Yup, just like I said. Because you are maintaining distance and angling off, you have to use many hand techniques because the elbow use in lin-siu-daai-da is impossible with this approach given the range and direction of movement.

First, if you get closer towards a person you have closed the distance.

Second you aren't maintaining distance. What you have done is disrupted the structure and balance of the opponent. The same thing can happen with any striking. The disruption of the opponent's structure is key to every WC/VT centerline theory I have either experienced or been told in speaking with others. If as a consequence of this the opponent ends up leaning away you haven't "maintained distance" the opponent has simply lost his balance.

As for the last, once he has finished his entry he certainly takes a full on stance, the point of the topic of the video however is simply to explain how you enter so he focuses his demonstration on the entry and jamming him up. You see him go "full on" post entry most obviously at about the 2:00 mark.

I totally understand that this is a different philosophy vs WSLPB-VT but the idea that A. We maintain distance B. And that we are, in essence, constantly dancing around the opponent and C. As you said previously, the elbows are not tactically used, are simply mis-characterizations

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[LFJ]

@guy b @lansao

The original scenario also limited footwork so as to highlight the issue with the center guard.

Imagine being in a place like in this video, or starting at 4:44. There's not much room for footwork at all, particularly lateral footwork to compensate for the failing center guard.

 

[LFJ]

First, if you get closer towards a person you have closed the distance.

Second you aren't maintaining distance.

From your perspective, if that's what you call it. Compared to what I do, it is maintaining distance.

As for the last, once he has finished his entry he certainly takes a full on stance, the point of the topic of the video however is simply to explain how you enter so he focuses his demonstration on the entry and jamming him up. You see him go "full on" post entry most obviously at about the 2:00 mark.

That's where it becomes most obvious that he's maintaining distance.

At 2:31, he literally steps backward away from the opponent and toward the camera!

I totally understand that this is a different philosophy vs WSLPB-VT but the idea that A. We maintain distance B. And that we are, in essence, constantly dancing around the opponent and C. As you said previously, the elbows are not tactically used, are simply mis-characterizations

A. He stepped backward away from the opponent.
B. He continually sidesteps to get further around the opponent.
C. The elbows are indeed not used in lin-siu-daai-da at all.

 

[lansao]

@guy b @lansao

The original scenario also limited footwork so as to highlight the issue with the center guard.

Imagine being in a place like in this video, or starting at 4:44. There's not much room for footwork at all, particularly lateral footwork to compensate for the failing center guard.

That cage in particular has more than enough room but in tighter spaces our t-step also proves useful. That said, it's hard to debate these finer points on a forum. If we were in class and studying this scenario, we would break it down and moment by moment analyze movements applying our Wing Chun principles and feeling it work. Then we would practice it. I'm confident there are many solutions to each of these scenarios, and I'll throw out there that an elbow may be one of them.

~ Alan