Siu Nim Tau - Sil Lim Tao

Xue Sheng

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Is there someplace, online, that has a list of the various movement in Siu Nim Tau (Sil Lim Tao) in order?

I have been looking and I have come up with partial lists and on overly complicated list. And I actually need the cantonese, in pinyin of course.

I have a couple wing chun books, I will go check those now to see if the list is there
 

hunschuld

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Your question asumes there is just 1 standard accepted version of SLT/,SNT. Just the fast that you have to use 2 names for the form points out there is not 1 standard form for all wing chun families
 
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Xue Sheng

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Your question asumes there is just 1 standard accepted version of SLT/,SNT. Just the fast that you have to use 2 names for the form points out there is not 1 standard form for all wing chun families

actually it doesn't, I know there are different versions. But I should have clarified it would be from the Ip Man lineage... and I know those are not all the same too.

But all that aside, I found what I was looking for in a book I have

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geezer

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actually it doesn't, I know there are different versions. But I should have clarified it would be from the Ip Man lineage... and I know those are not all the same too.
Yeah ....Not only do different branches of the Yip Man lineage disagree with each other, but over the years you can track changes within the same branch!

Example. in class last Tuesday, I referred to a sequences of techniques in the Chum Kiu form (as taught by my old sifu, LT) as "Til-kiu chung kuen, fak-sau, and recovering to fook-sau." My assistant (originally from another branch of the Yip Man lineage) piped up that his old sifu called the last technique cup sau.

This later led to a discussion about concept and function in which both terms (fook and cup) shed light on the concept behind technique.

Imagine how smart we would all be if we would all share information openly.... Hey! Just joking! :p
 
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hunschuld

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What most don't know is that YIp Man did not have names for many movements/techniques. His students actually came up with names. Hence the name differences. It can be fun when you hear people from the mainland make claims about more original than Yip Man etc and then use names invented by his students.
 

wckf92

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What most don't know is that YIp Man did not have names for many movements/techniques. His students actually came up with names. Hence the name differences. It can be fun when you hear people from the mainland make claims about more original than Yip Man etc and then use names invented by his students.

Never knew this. Thanks!
 

obi_juan_salami

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What most don't know is that YIp Man did not have names for many movements/techniques. His students actually came up with names. Hence the name differences. It can be fun when you hear people from the mainland make claims about more original than Yip Man etc and then use names invented by his students.
what are some examples of techniques yip mans students named? out of curiosity
 

geezer

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what are some examples of techniques yip mans students named? out of curiosity
In case Hunschuld doesn't get back, I would look at the technique names that different Yip Man branches use differently rather than those we all pretty much agree on.

On the one hand, we all pretty much agree on basics like the "three seeds": tan, bong, and fook sau.... other things may vary a lot.

For example my old sifu used to differentiate between gaun sau as a sharp, downward chop, and guat sau which was a larger downward wiping movement using the large muscles of the shoulder and back, and was capable of moving a kick aside. Both are in our Siu Nim Tau. I haven't seen that in Yip Man's old film or in other branches of his lineage.
 

obi_juan_salami

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In case Hunschuld doesn't get back, I would look at the technique names that different Yip Man branches use differently rather than those we all pretty much agree on.

On the one hand, we all pretty much agree on basics like the "three seeds": tan, bong, and fook sau.... other things may vary a lot.

For example my old sifu used to differentiate between gaun sau as a sharp, downward chop, and guat sau which was a larger downward wiping movement using the large muscles of the shoulder and back, and was capable of moving a kick aside. Both are in our Siu Nim Tau. I haven't seen that in Yip Man's old film or in other branches of his lineage.
Thats cool thanks for that. Don't think i have even heard of guat sau before but am familiar with the technique you are referring to. tan sau, 'guat sau', tan sau, huen sau, dai jeung is that right?

I was more asking about techniques that Hunschuld mention mainland styles claim to have that in-fact yip man students named?
 

hunschuld

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At this stage of life I get confused with my childrens names and the pet's names let alone remember all the standard names without going back to my note books but some off the top are Kau sau,dip sau ,ding sau ,names for cutting punch, the fore arm strike. fore knuckle strike. whipping punch, Chi Gerk, Huen Gerk, in fact the formal Chi Gerk training that many do was student invented. There are many more. . I will not name anything specific that could start some type of flame war too many take a religious view of their wing chun.
Yip Man was not a wing chun scholar. He was when younger a fighter. He said what was the point of learning martial arts if you did not want to learn how to fight. When the fighters would get hit or have issues he would usually show them a solution by saying " you could have done this or that" and should them the motion with out attaching a name to the motion.

Also his Foshan students have different things than the Hong Kong students and depending on when they learned they have different things from one another.
 

Callen

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Show, but not tell. The old school way. Part of the traditional Chinese gung fu recipe, still used by sifu today in China and Hong Kong (and by certain folks in the US).

Hawkins Cheung used to visit Gary Lams school in LA all the time and would share his experiences. Hawkins said that Yip Man believed that you had to train for skill to get the answers. Yip Man never gave any of his students the solutions to their problems right away, he wanted them to search by developing the system. When students had questions, he would often tell them where in the system to look. Hawkins went on to say that Yip Man taught by showing, not telling. He did this by choice, and as a result, to some degree most first generation students made the most profound discoveries by means of their own hard work. In an interview, Hawkins wrote that Yip Man was always making corrections but never spoon-fed the answers.

From my various interviews and research, I would say that Hawkins take on learning from Yip Man was a sentiment shared by other first generation students as well.
 
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Callen

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Example. in class last Tuesday, I referred to a sequences of techniques in the Chum Kiu form (as taught by my old sifu, LT) as "Til-kiu chung kuen, fak-sau, and recovering to fook-sau." My assistant (originally from another branch of the Yip Man lineage) piped up that his old sifu called the last technique cup sau.

This later led to a discussion about concept and function in which both terms (fook and cup) shed light on the concept behind technique.
This sounds like an interesting topic for a separate thread. Are you possibly referring to kap? In Canto, kap = covering, which is certainly similar to fook = subduing/hand on top.
 

geezer

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This sounds like an interesting topic for a separate thread. Are you possibly referring to kap? In Canto, kap = covering, which is certainly similar to fook = subduing/hand on top.
Yes, that's it. I believe I had it phonetically written as "kup" in my long lost notes. Kup, kap, cup, cop, quiap ...honestly, however I spell it, a native Cantonese speaker would never understand my pronunciation anyway! :p
 

geezer

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Show, but not tell. The old school way. Part of the traditional Chinese gung fu recipe, still used by sifu today in China and Hong Kong (and by certain folks in the US).

Hawkins Cheung used to visit Gary Lams school in LA all the time and would share his experiences. Hawkins said that Yip Man believed that you had to train for skill to get the answers. Yip Man never gave any of his students the solutions to their problems right away, he wanted them to search by developing the system. When students had questions, he would often tell them where in the system to look. Hawkins went on to say that Yip Man taught by showing, not telling. He did this by choice, and as a result, to some degree most first generation students made the most profound discoveries by means of their own hard work. In an interview, Hawkins wrote that Yip Man was always making corrections but never spoon-fed the answers.

From my various interviews and research, I would say that Hawkins take on learning from Yip Man was a sentiment shared by other first generation students as well.
I wish I had known Hawkins. From all the stories I've heard, he sounds like a really good guy. And this account, if true, makes GM Yip Man actually sound like a good teacher ...forcing students to think through things and solve problems for themselves. That would explain the diversity of approaches in the following generations.

On the other hand, since most of the following generations of instructors were all about building their egos and pocket books, this lead to all the infighting between branches that have plagued WC/WT/VT ever since.
 

Callen

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I wish I had known Hawkins. From all the stories I've heard, he sounds like a really good guy. And this account, if true, makes GM Yip Man actually sound like a good teacher ...forcing students to think through things and solve problems for themselves. That would explain the diversity of approaches in the following generations.
Hawkins' various accounts of his time with Yip Man can be found in several of his written interviews and articles over the years. He seemed fairly transparent when it came to sharing his experiences, but he wasn't the only one. Wong Shun Leung also talked about Yip Man's teaching methods in a similar way.

On the other hand, since most of the following generations of instructors were all about building their egos and pocket books, this lead to all the infighting between branches that have plagued WC/WT/VT ever since.
Sadly, this is the truth. And the politicking goes beyond the Yip Man lineage, unfortunately leading to conversations such as this one. IMO whether or not Yip Man was a good teacher, depends on who is telling the story and what they have to gain from their narrative.
 

SifuBoza

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Is there someplace, online, that has a list of the various movement in Siu Nim Tau (Sil Lim Tao) in order?

I have been looking and I have come up with partial lists and on overly complicated list. And I actually need the cantonese, in pinyin of course.

I have a couple wing chun books, I will go check those now to see if the list is there
We can talk about siu nim tao if you are interested. You will never find proper form on the internet cuz very few ppl know true first form. Hope i didnt upset other by this post
 
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Xue Sheng

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We can talk about siu nim tao if you are interested. You will never find proper form on the internet cuz very few ppl know true first form. Hope i didnt upset other by this post
I was not looking for the proper form on the internet, I know the form, 3 different versions actually, I was just looking for the names of the individual forms, and I already found them, in the book I posted previously in this post

Thank you
 

SifuBoza

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I was not looking for the proper form on the internet, I know the form, 3 different versions actually, I was just looking for the names of the individual forms, and I already found them, in the book I posted previously in this post

Thank you
Okay. Good luck with that book. Ip man sons never learn wing chun...maybe basics and thats all
 
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Xue Sheng

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Okay. Good luck with that book. Ip man sons never learn wing chun...maybe basics and thats all

Thanks, but I'm no here to debate lineage and I am not learning from a book, I learned the form 3 different times from 3 different shifus..I was just looking for the names of the postures in the form
 
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