Situational awarness

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One of the most notable stats I remember from LEO training; if a person is Not expecting someone to rush them, the person can cover about 15 feet before you can draw a weapon. If a person Is expecting a potential rush, they can only cover about 6 feet. This is an accurate and tested stat.
SA is very real in this scenario.

i didnt mean it like that. I meant it like, if you had a fence up and kept distance and always did that for pretty much every interaction, particular tells wouldnt be as important in said situations as you would default go into some form of defence. They would be more important if you couldnt, or in talking somone out of something. Or rather due to the dynamics of said situation.

Basically if you can get away with and dont mind looking like a weirdo most of the time. :p (obviously directed at people you dont know mainly)

I dont dispute said point anyway, as if you are expecting something you will have a plan of action for that something in place. isnt there a issue with, if you expect something and they do soemthing else it can delay your response time in altering the plan? Not too sure if it does and if it does, if it would have a impact worthy of noting.



Addendum: i dont mean randomly go into a high cover when ever you talk to someone, i meant if they come close to you, or you orginally ID them as suspecious, but you dont know what particular tells are ie punches, kicks, rushing. But you still have some form of guard up, SA to the level of knowing the tells for every attack seems un nessisary to know, so long as you know the general gist of it and can go into a good guard/defensive posture.
 

jobo

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One of the most notable stats I remember from LEO training; if a person is Not expecting someone to rush them, the person can cover about 15 feet before you can draw a weapon. If a person Is expecting a potential rush, they can only cover about 6 feet. This is an accurate and tested stat.
SA is very real in this scenario.
some one fleet of foot can rush 5 yards in a second,for the same person to only cover 2 yards before drawing then the draw would need to be made in less than 3 10ths of a second,
3 10th is pretty good reaction time then you actually have to draw point and aim, its sounds a bit kid curry to me
 

dvcochran

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isnt there a issue with, if you expect something and they do soemthing else it can delay your response time in altering the plan?
The area about 3' nearest you in any direction is called your curtilage. It is an area I let very few people inside for many of the reasons you mentioned.
Well, my wife but I don't always have a choice.;)

The word has multiple inferences but the definition mostly refers to the area nearest something.
 
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The area about 3' nearest you in any direction is called your curtilage. It is an area I let very few people inside for many of the reasons you mentioned.
Well, my wife but I don't always have a choice.;)

The word has multiple inferences but the definition mostly refers to the area nearest something.

You cant really do it if its a crowered area as your going to have like a dozen or so assualt/battery charges against you every time you go out. that seems to be the main reason/ it not being socially normal to basically fence somone. Of course all that changes if they try to intercept you/push you over etc. :p


Fun thing i think i recall doing a very bad fence once ages ago in school. see fundemtals exist at a early age, you just get shown terrible application of them in media and pick up those ones. It was the typical forearm over the chest one. which unless i got it wrong, if you raise higher like shown in the SPEAR system works quite well, and if you do a outside 90 block on them. Depeiction of that i saw is your forearm would probbly end up in their neck.
 

skribs

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ok how would you describe a subtle movement

give an example

One such movement would be when someone is talking to you, and they point their shoulder at you while they're trying to act insulted.
 

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you actually have to draw point and aim, its sounds a bit kid curry to me

No reason to aim within 2 yards....draw and fire....firing from the hip and as you bring the gun up.
 

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You cant really do it if its a crowered area as your going to have like a dozen or so assualt/battery charges against you every time you go out. that seems to be the main reason/ it not being socially normal to basically fence somone. Of course all that changes if they try to intercept you/push you over etc. :p


Fun thing i think i recall doing a very bad fence once ages ago in school. see fundemtals exist at a early age, you just get shown terrible application of them in media and pick up those ones. It was the typical forearm over the chest one. which unless i got it wrong, if you raise higher like shown in the SPEAR system works quite well, and if you do a outside 90 block on them. Depeiction of that i saw is your forearm would probbly end up in their neck.

The fence on its own is kind of stupid.
 

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One such movement would be when someone is talking to you, and they point their shoulder at you while they're trying to act insulted.

Or stand behind something so it takes them longer to get to you.
 
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The fence on its own is kind of stupid.

Well, its kind of weird to randomly go into a guard on somone for no reason. Basically, if you do what you see in some of the keysi DVD's you are going to look like a weirdo. But then again, people dont generally mess around with people who look a little looney, so its a good defence mechanism. :p
 

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Well, its kind of weird to randomly go into a guard on somone for no reason. Basically, if you do what you see in some of the keysi DVD's you are going to look like a weirdo. But then again, people dont generally mess around with people who look a little looney, so its a good defence mechanism. :p

A guard doesn't work like the fence is supposed to though. You don't stand in range with your guard up waiting for something to happen.

Your guard goes up. You move in to range, do something fighty then move back out of range so you have a hope in hell of anticipation their attack.

Your guard just stops a percentage of incoming attacks.

The fence is ironically exactly how you don't fight successfully.
 
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but the point is, apart from the very obvious, they are not obvious at all, they are very subtle and reading such subtlety cant be instructed?.

how would you do it,
In part, you are correct, experience does come into play, the driving a car analagy is a great example, we get into the car and all tge sa is working in the background, another good quote was its in all ma training, so how do you instruct in the subtlety, sparring, and basic drills, we have regular drills where all the class will walk around the room 1 or more people will be the strikers, they may have a knife concealed, they may just attack, they have been chosen by the instructor without the rest of the class knowing, the strikers will choose a random victim, could be the same person or not, the class will walk amonst each other for 5 or so mins, the teacher will live, the strikers do not attack imediately, it can be another 5 or so mins, the class is to observe the room, try to see if they can recognise the threat, recognise the movements of a knife reveal or the body language of an imminant attack, when it comes their job is to avoid the attack, a basic drill.
Other things we do, is to conduct the whole class with blindfolds on, or set drills like a version of sticky hands blindfolded, and a similar drill where 1 or both have a knife, or even multiple attackers blindfolded.
On a personal note, I become a student of movement, I wrote on another thread how in a supermarket carpark whilst waiting for mrs gweilo, I observe people entering and exiting the store, observing for weaknesses to their structure, you start by observing obvious weaknesses like a limp, then you notice more subtle conditions, even to the point I recognise shoplifters concealing items. These are a few things you can do, but experience is also important.
 

drop bear

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A guard doesn't work like the fence is supposed to though. You don't stand in range with your guard up waiting for something to happen.

Your guard goes up. You move in to range, do something fighty then move back out of range so you have a hope in hell of anticipation their attack.

Your guard just stops a percentage of incoming attacks.

The fence is ironically exactly how you don't fight successfully.

Instead you could apply situational awareness and you could alternatively stand back which forces him to step or off to the side which forces him to turn.

Then you can have two positive indications he will attack you a split second before he attacks you.
 

Gerry Seymour

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im not sure its something you can teach, so much as its an experience thing, if there,s a gang of hoodlums giving you a hard stare, do you really need a lesson that, that is bad and its getting time to leave, for other more subtle clues, its about an ability to read intent from body language and thats an enormously hard skill to perfect, and needs experiences to do so

which then leaves with a whole series of possible things you can do, and ts that choice that makes it a bad or very bad encounter even if you were accurate in the first place, which if you wernt may mean there some guy with a broken nose that only wanted directions
Depending upon the age of the students, there may be simple concepts they can benefit from hearing. Also, experience-learning can sometimes be accelerated by knowing what to look for in advance (actually, adult learning models suggest this is nearly universal).
 

jobo

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Depending upon the age of the students, there may be simple concepts they can benefit from hearing. Also, experience-learning can sometimes be accelerated by knowing what to look for in advance (actually, adult learning models suggest this is nearly universal).
you can teach people to read body language to a fairly accurate degree, it was part of one of my post grad courses, that i further enhanced with training from a retired detective constable in interview techniques. modern police interview as based on the research or the guy that invented the lie detector, whilst he was perfecting that technique he also documented over traits and behaviours

so yes your natural ability to read people can be greatly enhanced by training ' HOWEVER what im taking issue with is that the vat majority of MA instructor are in anyway qualified to do that and therefore that what they do teach is most possibly wrong or misleading. beyond the blatantly obvious

there not qualified to teach applied psychology in potential life threatening situations, they should not be doing so,
 
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jobo

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In part, you are correct, experience does come into play, the driving a car analagy is a great example, we get into the car and all tge sa is working in the background, another good quote was its in all ma training, so how do you instruct in the subtlety, sparring, and basic drills, we have regular drills where all the class will walk around the room 1 or more people will be the strikers, they may have a knife concealed, they may just attack, they have been chosen by the instructor without the rest of the class knowing, the strikers will choose a random victim, could be the same person or not, the class will walk amonst each other for 5 or so mins, the teacher will live, the strikers do not attack imediately, it can be another 5 or so mins, the class is to observe the room, try to see if they can recognise the threat, recognise the movements of a knife reveal or the body language of an imminant attack, when it comes their job is to avoid the attack, a basic drill.
Other things we do, is to conduct the whole class with blindfolds on, or set drills like a version of sticky hands blindfolded, and a similar drill where 1 or both have a knife, or even multiple attackers blindfolded.
On a personal note, I become a student of movement, I wrote on another thread how in a supermarket carpark whilst waiting for mrs gweilo, I observe people entering and exiting the store, observing for weaknesses to their structure, you start by observing obvious weaknesses like a limp, then you notice more subtle conditions, even to the point I recognise shoplifters concealing items. These are a few things you can do, but experience is also important.
well maybe, the problem is you have no way of testing your conclusion to see if they are correct, now i agree that some shoplifters look like shoplifters, they dress and mo0ve in a shoplifting way, if they also have what is quite obviously a chicken in their jacket you can probably say with a certain certainty they are indeed shoplifters, they also tend not to be very successful shop lifers as the store security can also spot them.

what you cant differentiate is all the people who dress and move a certain way that are not shoplifters, there's a real risk here that you are just using class/race/ age/gender stereotypes to come a untestable conclusion. nor are you identifying all the successful shoplifters that have the sense and self awareness to not dress or move like a shoplifter

there's the ones that have put on a shirt and tie, don't hang furtively near small high value items, haven't been follow on cctv by store security and have a stolen watch in their pocket, as they notcholently stroll to their BMW. in fact dressing smartly and notchlently strolling out with big items clearly on display is quite a successful strategy.

there was a news item a few years ago about a guy who was stealing very expensive carpet, by picking up a 4 meter roll and stolling off with it, before cycling home with it on his shoulder, he had made off with tens of thousands of pounds of the stuff before someone actually challenged him , store security being to busy following people who did look like shoplifters to notice him
 
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Gerry Seymour

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you can teach people to read body language to a fairly accurate degree, it was part of one of my post grad courses, that i further enhanced with training from a retired detective constable in interview techniques. modern police interview as based on the research or the guy that invented the lie detector, whilst he was perfecting that technique he also documented over traits and behaviours

so yes your natural ability to read people can be greatly enhanced by training ' HOWEVER what im taking issue with is that the vat majority of MA instructor are in anyway qualified to do that and therefore that what they do teach is most possibly wrong or misleading. beyond the blatantly obvious

there not qualified to teach applied psychology in potential life threatening situations, they should not be doing so,
I agree entirely with the idea that many MA instructors are less competent (both at situational awareness and at teaching it) than they seem to think. There's some actual research available, and input from folks whose butts are on the line regularly. I trust those sources (the first more than the second) more than most MA instructors.
 
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