Looking after your knees

A

Argus

2nd Black Belt
It seems that whenever I speak to older martial artists, their achilles heel is always the condition of their knees.

Many times it's related to training. Sometimes, just wear and tear.

I'm still sort of young, at 36. Have been practicing since my early 20's. But I've always noticed that my knees begin to get sore with any kind of turning or shifting whether on my balls, or heels. I also sit cross-legged a lot, and have my whole life, which sometimes makes this soreness more pronounced.

I know you guys aren't doctors, disclaimers, yadda-yadda, but I find real world experience to be extremely valuable. If you could go back 10, 20, 30 years, and improve the situation with your knees and prevent any problems down the road, what would you do?

And for those of you who are far more knowledgeable than me about exercise -- which should be most of you -- are there any exercises I should be doing to strengthen the muscles around / supporting my knees besides squats?

In terms of technique, I am aware that the feet and knees should pivot together. I believe that's what I'm doing...

Just figured I'd try to get ahead of this problem before it becomes serious. As of now, it's very much intermittent, goes away on its own, and not a big concern. But the fact that it's followed me throughout my training and throughout the practice of various arts indicates that it's something that I should probably pay attention to.
 
Argus said:
It seems that whenever I speak to older martial artists, their achilles heel is always the condition of their knees.

Many times it's related to training. Sometimes, just wear and tear.

I'm still sort of young, at 36. Have been practicing since my early 20's. But I've always noticed that my knees begin to get sore with any kind of turning or shifting whether on my balls, or heels. I also sit cross-legged a lot, and have my whole life, which sometimes makes this soreness more pronounced.

I know you guys aren't doctors, disclaimers, yadda-yadda, but I find real world experience to be extremely valuable. If you could go back 10, 20, 30 years, and improve the situation with your knees and prevent any problems down the road, what would you do?

And for those of you who are far more knowledgeable than me about exercise -- which should be most of you -- are there any exercises I should be doing to strengthen the muscles around / supporting my knees besides squats?

In terms of technique, I am aware that the feet and knees should pivot together. I believe that's what I'm doing...

Just figured I'd try to get ahead of this problem before it becomes serious. As of now, it's very much intermittent, goes away on its own, and not a big concern. But the fact that it's followed me throughout my training and throughout the practice of various arts indicates that it's something that I should probably pay attention to.
Click to expand...

You haven't mentioned the type of exercise you do other then squatting, or your practice.
Might be helpful to do so 🙂
 
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There is a lot to this. Proper warm ups, proper stretching, strength training, etc, but one thing that is often overlooked is really good shoes. Proper shoes for daily use & sport help with foot alignment, absorbing impact, weight distribution, etc. I play tennis 3 sometimes 4 times a week and shoes make as much difference as the racket. Especially at 70 years old 😜
 
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Argus said:
It seems that whenever I speak to older martial artists, their achilles heel is always the condition of their knees.

Many times it's related to training. Sometimes, just wear and tear.

I'm still sort of young, at 36. Have been practicing since my early 20's. But I've always noticed that my knees begin to get sore with any kind of turning or shifting whether on my balls, or heels. I also sit cross-legged a lot, and have my whole life, which sometimes makes this soreness more pronounced.

I know you guys aren't doctors, disclaimers, yadda-yadda, but I find real world experience to be extremely valuable. If you could go back 10, 20, 30 years, and improve the situation with your knees and prevent any problems down the road, what would you do?

And for those of you who are far more knowledgeable than me about exercise -- which should be most of you -- are there any exercises I should be doing to strengthen the muscles around / supporting my knees besides squats?

In terms of technique, I am aware that the feet and knees should pivot together. I believe that's what I'm doing...

Just figured I'd try to get ahead of this problem before it becomes serious. As of now, it's very much intermittent, goes away on its own, and not a big concern. But the fact that it's followed me throughout my training and throughout the practice of various arts indicates that it's something that I should probably pay attention to.
Click to expand...

You’re wise to get ahead of the promblem going forward. You’re probably behind at this point. But the help isn’t that difficult if you’re willing to do the work. So let me ask,

How much and what kind of stretching do you do?

What knee exercises do you do?

What glut exercises do you do?
 
Argus said:
It seems that whenever I speak to older martial artists, their achilles heel is always the condition of their knees.

Many times it's related to training. Sometimes, just wear and tear.

I'm still sort of young, at 36. Have been practicing since my early 20's. But I've always noticed that my knees begin to get sore with any kind of turning or shifting whether on my balls, or heels. I also sit cross-legged a lot, and have my whole life, which sometimes makes this soreness more pronounced.

I know you guys aren't doctors, disclaimers, yadda-yadda, but I find real world experience to be extremely valuable. If you could go back 10, 20, 30 years, and improve the situation with your knees and prevent any problems down the road, what would you do?

And for those of you who are far more knowledgeable than me about exercise -- which should be most of you -- are there any exercises I should be doing to strengthen the muscles around / supporting my knees besides squats?

In terms of technique, I am aware that the feet and knees should pivot together. I believe that's what I'm doing...

Just figured I'd try to get ahead of this problem before it becomes serious. As of now, it's very much intermittent, goes away on its own, and not a big concern. But the fact that it's followed me throughout my training and throughout the practice of various arts indicates that it's something that I should probably pay attention to.
Click to expand...
I don't have much to offer in the way of advice. I am 63 and fortunately for me, my knees are not an issue. I have arthritis, according to my doctor. He moves my knees through their range of motion and he can feel them crunching. He asks me if it hurts and I say no. He says they should be giving me pain. I'm just glad they don't. I cannot go down on one knee when doing kata anymore, but that seems to be more a function of my loss of muscle and tone. I just can't power myself back up again.

My hips and shoulders, however, are a disaster. If one hip doesn't hurt, the other one does. And my shoulders are severerly limiting my range of motion. I took 12 weeks off for physical therapy on the shoulders. It was great for the pain - but the range of motion didn't get better. And now the pain is back worse and the range of motion is worse as well. So I guess they're done for.

I have balance issues and I lurch about and lose my balance when kicking, so that's fun. My katas have never looked worse. Well, I just keep plugging away.
 
My opinion is that there are a lot of anatomically poor practices in the martial arts, where people move in ways that are injurious and gradually contribute to the wear and tear of joints that does not become evident until long after the damage is done. Perhaps the errors are seemingly minor and would go unnoticed unless scrutinized by someone especially knowledgeable on the topic, particularly regarding the methods of whatever specific system someone is practicing.

So there may not be any clear answers. In general, rotate the upper and lower leg together as a unit, so the knee joint does not get twisted and does not suffer injurious stresses. Be careful about how deeply you bend the knee when going into low stances that put weight on the bent knee. Make sure the knees don’t collapse when working in stances and transitioning from one stance to another.

These are general suggestions that would manifest in different ways depending on the system one practices, so there is no single answer for this.
 
Buka said:
You’re wise to get ahead of the promblem going forward. You’re probably behind at this point. But the help isn’t that difficult if you’re willing to do the work. So let me ask,

How much and what kind of stretching do you do?

What knee exercises do you do?

What glut exercises do you do?
Click to expand...
About the only exercises I do beyond martial arts and occasional hiking, are squats, situps, and pushups, and even those not as consistently as I should do them.

Stretches... I'm honestly in a bad habit of not stretching. I'll do excentric stretches for my achilles tendonitis that sometimes flares up (negative extension under load, using a step or such and then lifting myself up/down with the toes), and I will stretch my hamstrings and legs in general before practicing kicks, but that's about it. As I'm getting older, I really should be stretching more I feel.

For reference, I'm very thin and definitely not overweight. I tend to have good upper body strength, but not so good lower body strength. If I can get out hiking up the steep mountains we have here, I could change that dynamic, but work and family leaves very little time for that.
 
Gyakuto said:
1) Don’t run/jog on hard surfaces…in fact at all. Cross trainer/stationary bike where there is a low load, long sweeping pressure applied to the knee cartilage.

2) Start taking 1500mg of glucosamine. It might help.

3) Keep your weight as low as healthy possible.

4) Take boswelia/bromelain/collagen hydrosylate/UC2

5) Don’t touch ‘yourself’…ever.
Click to expand...

This is a good list, although I'm not sure about #5, lol.

Running/jogging on hard surfaces destroys my tendons, as does drinking alcohol, it appears. I'm prone to tendonitis in my achilles tendon and also my wrists if I'm not careful.

I probably weigh only about 130lbs, so can't imagine the strain if were much heavier.

Perhaps my body has a lower than average capacity to heal itself and sustain injury in general, I'm not sure. It shouldn't, because I don't have any underlying condition that I'm aware of that would cause that and generally eat and sleep well.

I consume very little sugar and probably eat healthier than the vast majority of people. Perhaps I'm missing some vitamin or something, though. Will try adding glucosamine and perhaps a multivitamin.

My intuition is that much of my injuries, both tendonitis and whatever is up with my knees, could be resolved by strengthening the muscles supporting those joints, along with possibly some minor tweaks to my practice and such.
 
Flying Crane said:
My opinion is that there are a lot of anatomically poor practices in the martial arts,
Click to expand...
Absolutely!
Flying Crane said:
where people move in ways that are injurious and gradually contribute to the wear and tear of joints that does not become evident until long after the damage is done. Perhaps the errors are seemingly minor and would go unnoticed unless scrutinized by someone especially knowledgeable on the topic, particularly regarding the methods of whatever specific system someone is practicing.
Click to expand...
You’ve knocked the nail on the head! There are times, when being warmed up at seminars, where I stand in place and maybe perform gentle knee bends rather than knees circling (😳) and get funny looks!
Flying Crane said:
So there may not be any clear answers. In general, rotate the upper and lower leg together as a unit, so the knee joint does not get twisted and does not suffer injurious stresses. Be careful about how deeply you bend the knee when going into low stances that put weight on the bent knee. Make sure the knees don’t collapse when working in stances and transitioning from one stance to another.
Click to expand...
😳 You appear to be my alter ego! I hope I/we wear a cape.

I cringe when people that ‘knee-over-toe’ person. I showed some of his videos to a graduate student in the Dept of Biomedical Engineering and he said he wouldn’t personally do that kind of thing repeatedly although he acknowledged that those types of positions do transiently occur in sporting activities.
Flying Crane said:
These are general suggestions that would manifest in different ways depending on the system one practices, so there is no single answer for this.
Click to expand...
Tying crystals to you knees with natural jute works. From you’re post’s aura, @Arga, I can feel your crystal types are amethyst and rose quartz. I sell especially energised versions if you want to contact me 😐
 
Monkey Turned Wolf said:
It used to be advice doctors would give for many irrelevant issues. If you go back to old medical/psychiatric textbooks, you can even find spots where they say that masturbation is a moral/virtue problem that can cause various physical maladies.
Click to expand...
It is. Just ask any priest. The good Lord and knee specialists care dearly about what you do with your genitalia.
 
With knees it can be hard to say...

Some problems could be congenital in nature, or due to type of training.

Having lived in Asian countries, Korea, Thailand, and China, ect. I've noticed that people who squat and live close to the ground don't seem to have the same issues as those from countries with different customs.

When I first saw my teachers practice in Beijing many years ago, I remarked that it would damage their knees. He over 80 at the time, laughed and said, "My knees are fine," and indeed they were.

Initially, I tried to mimic what looked like simple squatting exercises, assuming I could handle them due to my previous CMA training. Ended up damaging my legs, taking some time to recover.

Later, after practicing the movements with proper understanding and coaching, no problems. 👍

Important to know the limitations of one's own body, working with in them understanding when they can be expanded,
and when it's not possible.

In CMA there are things, past a certain age cannot be practiced due to physical developments after.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf said:
It used to be advice doctors would give for many irrelevant issues. If you go back to old medical/psychiatric textbooks, you can even find spots where they say that masturbation is a moral/virtue problem that can cause various physical maladies.
Click to expand...
At the same time making house calls to treat “hysteria” with a mobile foot pump powered phallus.
 
windwalker099 said:
Having lived in Asian countries, Korea, Thailand, and China, ect. I've noticed that people who squat and live close to the ground don't seem to have the same issues as those from countries with different customs.

When I first saw my teachers practice in Beijing many years ago, I remarked that it would damage their knees. He over 80 at the time, laughed and said, "My knees are fine," and indeed they were.
Click to expand...
It’s a confused story when you look at it. ‘The prevalence of knee pain in adults was more common in Indian women and older women age groups and Chinese men had the lowest prevalence of knee pain.’ Indian women squat most of the day (in rural villages) and where are the Chinese women?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ethnic differences in the prevalence of knee pain among adults of a community in a cross-sectional study

To determine the prevalence of knee pain among 3 major ethnic groups in Malaysia. By identifying high-risk groups, preventive measures can be targeted at these populations.A cross-sectional survey was carried out in rural and urban areas in a state in ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

windwalker099 said:
Initially, I tried to mimic what looked like simple squatting exercises, assuming I could handle them due to my previous CMA training. Ended up damaging my legs, taking some time to recover.
Click to expand...
I’ve neglected performing ‘Asian squat’ as I get funny looks at the gym. It seems to act on the hips rather than the knees I’ll have to reintroduce it into my regime.
 
I started experiencing knee pain at 34 and hip pain at 36. I was already in physical therapy for a shoulder injury I acquired during BJJ training and brought it up to my physical therapist. He did some tests and basically what happened was that my TKD/Karate focused training had caused certain muscles to be significantly stronger than their counterparts that work in opposition. This caused more "pull" in a single direction on my joints over stressing them in that direction. He gave me some exercises to do that would help strengthen the weak muscles and also ended up giving me better hip mobility. I have been knee and hip pain free for a few months now.

As an aside, it would appear that certain positions in bjj, such as being on your knees, and locking out certain kicks also put stress on your knees where they aren't intended to take it. Basically, unless you are hitting a target locking out round kicks and side kicks can damage the knee over time.
 
J. Pickard said:
I started experiencing knee pain at 34 and hip pain at 36. I was already in physical therapy for a shoulder injury I acquired during BJJ training and brought it up to my physical therapist. He did some tests and basically what happened was that my TKD/Karate focused training had caused certain muscles to be significantly stronger than their counterparts that work in opposition. This caused more "pull" in a single direction on my joints over stressing them in that direction. He gave me some exercises to do that would help strengthen the weak muscles and also ended up giving me better hip mobility. I have been knee and hip pain free for a few months now.
Click to expand...
I had exactly the same story with patella tendinitis! Once the imbalance in muscle strength was addressed my left knee was and is, fine.
J. Pickard said:
As an aside, it would appear that certain positions in bjj, such as being on your knees, and locking out certain kicks also put stress on your knees where they aren't intended to take it. Basically, unless you are hitting a target locking out round kicks and side kicks can damage the knee over time.
Click to expand...
Hmmm…martial arts aren’t good for the health!
 
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