Since when is Judo not a MA?

[pknox]

Originally posted by arnisador
I bet that selling it as a sport is a smart strategy indeed. I've seen this before in many guises, including selling TKD or Karate as Fitness for Kids rather than a Martial Art.

This approach is also used to get practitioners in the door and ease them into studying a more traditional version of the art as well. An example could be having a cardio kickboxing program alongside a more traditional MA. The cardio kickboxing gets them in the door, and then they can later be introduced to the other stuff.

 

[John Bishop]

Seems like now days people want to call any sport where there is human contact a "martial art".
Might as well call linebackers martial artists, since they could probably mess you up too if they tackled you on the street. Oh yea, soccer players could probably throw some good kicks on the street too.
In reality, boxers, greco roman wrestlers, free style wrestlers, judoka, all train for sporting purposes. They do not train to do any type of knife defenses, multiple man defenses, gun defenses, etc. They primarily train and condition for the purpose of sporting competition against a single opponant under to preset rules.

 

[Steve Howard]

I must repectfully disagree with Mr. Bishop. Although much my senior in knowledge and experience, I feel he may be over-generalizing in this instance. I will concede that MOST judoka and MOST judo clubs probably only practice the sport aspect of judo. Judo does, however, have a combat aspect--most people just aren't looking for it, and there aren't necessarily many instructors qualified to teach it. This, however, could be said of many arts--including the arts practiced by Mr. Bishop and myself. One must be careful not to assume that one's own experiences with an art represent the whole and totality of that art. One must also remember that many of the men instrumental in the development of both kenpo and kajukenbo had backgrounds in judo. I was fortunate enough to spend some time training with a six-degree kodokan black belt who taught judo for self-defense. The techniques he demostated bore striking simularities to common kenpo responses. Also, although not used in sport competition, judo does include striking techniques and weapon defenses.

I do appreciate Mr. Bishop's contribution to the boards. Just want to make sure we aren't painting with too wide a brush. Sport competition may be the most common training emphasis in judo, but it is not the only emphasis and does not represent the totality of the art.

Respectfully,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[John Bishop]

Good point Mr. Howard. I do expect to catch quite a bit of heat over my statement. But, I do have some knowledge on the topic. My first martial art was judo in 1958-62. My father was the judo instructor at Camp Pendleton, Ca. in the mid 50s and later at the L. A. Athletic Club. His contempories at the time were judoka like Gene Lebell, and Willy Cahill.
It is true that many of the Kajukenbo and Kenpo people had judo training as their first system. This sort of backs up my contention. Most of them left judo or trained in additional systems because they felt judo was not oriented to street self defense.
And yes it's true that there are some judo instructors that teach a more self defense oriented criteria. If you look into the background of these instructors, in most cases you will find that they supplemented their judo knowledge with some karate, jujitsu, or kung fu training.

 

[arnisador]

In some ways Judo is a victim of its own success as an Olympic sport.

 

[pknox]

Well phrased as always, Mr. Bishop. You are correct in that many judoka supplement their training with outside arts, and take the self-defense aspect of those other arts onto the floor when they teach. That makes perfect sense, as Kano did essentially the same thing when creating judo. Realize also that Mr. Howard gave us some very relevant information when he stated:

Also, although not used in sport competition, judo does include striking techniques and weapon defenses.

The aforementioned techniques can in fact be taught be bringing in techniques synthesized from other arts, and you are correct when you stated that that is often done. That is not necessary, however, as the techniques mentioned by Mr. Howard are actually contained within the kata of judo, usually taught to more advanced practitioners.

Honestly, I think that bringing in techniques from other arts is a good thing, and is in fact necessary to allow the art to continue to evolve. Many of the techniques in the judo katas were developed in the 19th century -- while their are valid techniques there, in many ways combat has evolved since then, so bringing in info from other arts that have developed since that time is a good thing.

The same rationale can be brought into arts besides those with a more prevalent sporting aspect. A case in point - a great deal more people are now studying wrestling and ground grappling then were doing it ten or fifteen years ago. In order to be able to defend yourself against such people, it is necessary to know how to both apply and defend some of their moves. Using your example of a linebacker, my guess is that someone as athletic as he, and also as use to contact, would have very little difficulty executing a fairly good double-leg takedown, which is essentially a wrestling maneuver. As a matter of fact, if we assume they have had no MA training, that is a move that is highly probable. Does this mean we should teach MA practitioners how to apply and defend against someone shooting in with a double leg? Because we often have to defend ourselves against non-MAists, I think we should - especially if the technique in question has a high probability of occuring. If we do, the fact that the technique in question arose from a so called "sportive" system -- does that make the MA that absorbed it any less martial? Is JKD less of a martial art because it teaches hand techniques from boxing (a sportive art) as opposed to karate? Is Muay Thai not an effective MA, because it's techniques are primarily used and further developed in the ring?

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by arnisador
In some ways Judo is a victim of its own success as an Olympic sport.

One could even say in many ways:

1. The impression has arisen that judo has no value outside of the ring, which, if one looks solely at the way the art is practiced in competition, is a valid assumption.

2. The current scoring system has led to a disproportionate use of throws, thereby reducing the amount of time spent on ground grappling -- When Kano developed the art, it was supposed to be around 50/50, today it is often trained more like 80/20 in favor of throws.

3. Much of the character-building that was inherent in pre-Olympic judo has decreased if not dissapeared -- it is now common to see competitors argue with referees over a call, something that was unimaginable back in the 50's.

4. Respect for the authentic and orthodox execution of a technique has eroded almost completely, and many techniques are now executed almost completely through strength as opposed to proper form.

5. Many very talented MAists have moved away from judo into to other grappling arts due to the aforementioned reasons, thereby decreasing the pool of potentially great judoka. (Mike Swain's new take on judo rules, which has less of a disparity between throws and ground techniques, as well as support from the higher-ups in judo, who are now realizing that they are losing talented practitioners to BJJ and sambo because of this disproportion of techniques, and are making a sincere effort to do something about it, are hopely putting this problem on the road to resolution).

Realize that in traditional schools that equally emphasize the sport and self-defense aspects of the curriculum, these are not nearly as large of a problem. Unfortunately, schools like that are becoming more and more rare. My hope is that as people realize this, the situation will change.

 

[someguy]

I'd call judo a martial art but I supposeee it depends on whos defining it
I'd say its a martial art done for the sport of fitness aspect of it. Most tend to say that martial arts must have a combat aspect of it. I guess you could include entertainment and spiritual and that be about the only aspects that you can get from martial arts.