Since Terry asked, lets talk about

[garrisons2]

something simple like punching, should the contact be made with a horizontal, vertical or 45 deg. fist? Why?:caffeine:

 

[dancingalone]

They all have their advantages. Many beginners find the vertical or 45 degree fist easier to learn at first since the rotational movement is smaller and they can hit with the correct knuckles more readily.

I've played around with this quite extensively over a decade ago and I couldn't detect an appreciable power difference with any of them. Just by intuitive guessing, I would say I can produce more hydrostatic shock and a little bit more terminal velocity using the hip and shoulders with the full rotating fist, but I'm inclined to think that's just because that is my primary technique being the way I first learned to punch.

This is one of those things that is just stylistic in my opinion. Wing chun guys use the vertical fist (some punch with the bottom knuckles though). Isshinryu karate uses the vertical or 45 degree fist. The majority of other Japanese/Okinawan/Korean styles seem to use the horizontal fist. One can be a fine puncher using any of them.

 

[granfire]

45 degrees?

 

[garrisons2]

Yes 45 degrees. Has some advantages, namely it most closely conforms to the arms supporting bone structure, provides twisting torque and can more easily strike just below the rib cage for example without hitting the ribs as in a horizontal fist

 

[Manny]

Nice post and it's going to start a good tread here.

Well not bein a MA a a person that uses his/or her puchs will use automatically the vertical or the 45 degrees punch, why? becasuse this is the way we know almost naturaly. The Martial Artist will use more the horizontal puch because it used from the hips and that´s the way we are taught to do do it and we do zillions of reps this way.

Adventajes of using vertical vs horizontal vs 45 degrees well I see very little.

If I punch from the hip I will use a horizontal punch but if I pucnh from my high guard (ala boxer) I will use de 45 degrees or in some cases the vertical punch.

Manny

 

[tshadowchaser]

I may be wrong but from watching people over the years i find that beginners often hit with their last two knuckles instead of the first two when trying to do a horizontal punch.
If they learn the vertical punch first they seem less likely to make that mistake.
Now as to which is more effective, I have no idea as I use both with good results

 

[punisher73]

Here is an article in which a medical doctor examines the implications of that type of punch and what is strongest anatomically.

http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/articles/chris-thomas/punching-power.pdf

Here is an article from 24 Fighting Chickens about the rotation of a punch and it adding torque/power to the technique along with full extension.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2...-extension-and-fist-rotation-during-punching/

Combining both articles together the conclusion is that the punch is strongest at a 45 degree angle and at about 75% extension. But, as others have commented, if all you train is a full extension horizontal punch you will get very good at it.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'm focused on function, and am almost certainly less knowledgeable than most, but:

I'm focused on base and target, and will work with the best angle to transfer power so I'm hitting with correct knuckles. With a good base and middle section target, I'd rather hit around 60 degrees and mostly but not completely extended so I can punch through the target.

It's interesting that there's no talk of height or angle and only a little on distance. Outside the shoulder, for instance, and straight punch loses power.

 

[dortiz]

YES

Due to type of punch, height on target and target area being impacted. Lots o variables and lots of means : )

 

[Touch Of Death]

vertical.

 

[AndrewKFM]

Strong situational flexibility is required for punching, but we're taught horizontal fists, and that's what we practice. The twist at the end of our punch can add up to 20lbs of force, and if you're throwing a vertical or 45° punch, you can't fit that twist in.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Its OK to go horizontal through your opponent; so, you aren't squeezing anything in before contact, but on contact.
Sean

 

[David43515]

We were always taught that the "standard"" reverse punch is actually practicing 3 different ranges. The Horizontal punch for longest range, you continue turning the fist so you still have rotation and torque all the way to the end. The 45 degree or ertical punch for middle ranges. And the palm-up position (like an uppercut) for extreme close range body shots where you don`t have room to add arm rotaion and all your power comes from the waist. Each one has it`s place.

The vertical fist punch can be used anywhere, but it`s especially usefully when throwing straight punches above the level of your own shoulder. That way you don`t run the risk of hitting with your 2nd knuckle (the one you knock on doors with) first. That`s an easy way to bend and possibly sprain the wrist.

Styles that strike with the vertical fist but with the emphasis on the bottom three knuckles, like Wing Chun and some other southern kung fu systems, don`t use it for power punching. They use it from trapping range for short combination punches that help to set up the power punches. Usually they are throwing that punch so that the arm is still mostly bent when the fist lands. The ulna bone in the forearm strikes the opponant`s arms first as a block or part of a trap, then the arm continues to slide on up and the fist hits the body or head. If you try that out at full extension, or with a ton of power, you`re just asking for an injured hand. But in close, it`s pure genius.

 

[Earl Weiss]

something simple like punching, should the contact be made with a horizontal, vertical or 45 deg. fist? Why?:caffeine:

The answer is yes. Target dictates optimal weapon. You left out upset (Upside down). See also

http://371078645507472465-a-1802744...MQZLS9VNfWXQUnDVk0R5LCN3lVOiI=&attredirects=0

 

[Earl Weiss]

Here is an article in which a medical doctor examines the implications of that type of punch and what is strongest anatomically.

http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/articles/chris-thomas/punching-power.pdf

quote]

The above artiocle was written by Chris Thomas . Both he and the doctor cited are Dillman progeny who advocate the 3/4 Punch. So, everything there is suspect. Not neccessarily false, but suspect.

Now I will submit questions to the readers of this BBS. Their conclusion is that the forearm structure is weaker for the full twist punch than the 3/4 twist punch. How much weaker is not stated. It could be 1% or 50%. I think this would call for some in depth bio mechnaical study. Now for the question. How many people have seen demos / tests where all manner of wood, concrete, and ice was brokedn with a full twist punch? Now, how many have seen any issues wehatsoever with the strength or stability of the forearm?
If your like me you have seen thousands of such breaks and zero such issues.

Next question. If you are familiar with some of Dillman's stuff and related pressure point theories you will note that on the forearm the points are located mainly (but not excluisively) on the palm side of the forearm. Which exposes these points more, the 3/4 or full twist punch to possible impact from the opponents hands or arms?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Here is an article from 24 Fighting Chickens about the rotation of a punch and it adding torque/power to the technique along with full extension.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2...-extension-and-fist-rotation-during-punching/

.

this article makes the common mistake of using physics without considering physiology. I.e. it studies and finds the punch reaches maximum speed at 75% extension. Well, of course, if you were to try to increase yor speed until full extension you would tear the arm apart. So, the body needs to strat slowing down the punch befpre full impact. The "Snappy" retraction is a by product of the slowing / stopping.
Similarly, the force issue vivs a vis rotation does not take into account various effects on different types of targets,. particularly anatomical ones.

For a truly classic article from 1983 often cited see "The Physics of Karate"
http://www.arnis.org/downloads/physics1.pdf

While it is not exactly on point for this topic it highlights how the physicists themselve realized that their hypothesis were screwed up and they needed to take physiology into account. It does not address anatomical targets but does address deformation of the fist on impact.

 

[punisher73]

Strong situational flexibility is required for punching, but we're taught horizontal fists, and that's what we practice. The twist at the end of our punch can add up to 20lbs of force, and if you're throwing a vertical or 45° punch, you can't fit that twist in.

I'd like to see an article about that instead of just anecdotal. I have never found anything about twisting the punch that doing so actually adds force/speed/power to the punch. The only thing I have ever heard is that by rotating on impact you can tear the skin of the opponent's face (a la boxing strategy).

 

[punisher73]

this article makes the common mistake of using physics without considering physiology. I.e. it studies and finds the punch reaches maximum speed at 75% extension. Well, of course, if you were to try to increase yor speed until full extension you would tear the arm apart. So, the body needs to strat slowing down the punch befpre full impact. The "Snappy" retraction is a by product of the slowing / stopping.
Similarly, the force issue vivs a vis rotation does not take into account various effects on different types of targets,. particularly anatomical ones.

For a truly classic article from 1983 often cited see "The Physics of Karate"
http://www.arnis.org/downloads/physics1.pdf

While it is not exactly on point for this topic it highlights how the physicists themselve realized that their hypothesis were screwed up and they needed to take physiology into account. It does not address anatomical targets but does address deformation of the fist on impact.

Your body CAN'T accerlate faster than the muscles are made to move and they will be fastest in their strongest range of movement, that is how the body works. You are fast because your body can contract those particular muscles used to throw the punch effectively. Once you are outside of their strength range, they can't operate as effectively. That is the point of the 75% extension, you lose speed because the muscles are weak in that range just before full extension. Look at an activity outside of martial arts. When you are tired on a bench press, where do you usually get stuck at? You can usually power through until about 75% and then get stuck (no I'm not saying this is scientific by any means, just a practical example of real life movement). Why? That movement just before lockout is the weakest. If you use the other end of training, and take partial reps as an example, you only use the top portion of that movement and again eliminate that weak sticking point where the muscles are strong working together.

 

[dancingalone]

I'd like to see an article about that instead of just anecdotal. I have never found anything about twisting the punch that doing so actually adds force/speed/power to the punch. The only thing I have ever heard is that by rotating on impact you can tear the skin of the opponent's face (a la boxing strategy).

I studied boxing for six months in my martial arts odyssey early on in life. My coach taught me to rotate the fist at the end on the jab and the cross, just like one would with a karate-style punch. He said it added power, so it's not just karate/taekwondo people who make the claim.

I'd like to see some research on this too.

 

[punisher73]

Here is an article in which a medical doctor examines the implications of that type of punch and what is strongest anatomically.

http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/articles/chris-thomas/punching-power.pdf

quote]

The above artiocle was written by Chris Thomas . Both he and the doctor cited are Dillman progeny who advocate the 3/4 Punch. So, everything there is suspect. Not neccessarily false, but suspect.

Now I will submit questions to the readers of this BBS. Their conclusion is that the forearm structure is weaker for the full twist punch than the 3/4 twist punch. How much weaker is not stated. It could be 1% or 50%. I think this would call for some in depth bio mechnaical study. Now for the question. How many people have seen demos / tests where all manner of wood, concrete, and ice was brokedn with a full twist punch? Now, how many have seen any issues wehatsoever with the strength or stability of the forearm?
If your like me you have seen thousands of such breaks and zero such issues.

Next question. If you are familiar with some of Dillman's stuff and related pressure point theories you will note that on the forearm the points are located mainly (but not excluisively) on the palm side of the forearm. Which exposes these points more, the 3/4 or full twist punch to possible impact from the opponents hands or arms?

No one said that with practice you couldn't be effective with one punch more than another. But, if you are talking about "breaking" than you aren't doing a full twist punch either unless it is only a couple of boards. Watch when it is alot of material, the punch is not rotated like you do in the "twist punch".

The article merely stated that the 3/4 punch lines up ANATOMICALLY the bones and supportive tissues better. Go and get a skeleton and twist the bones around on the forearm and you will see the same results (I did, wanted to see for myself).