Anarax
Master Black Belt
Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up onAnd yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.
Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up onAnd yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.
I don’t know, man. I’ve never had the impression he’s pretentious. Well, no more than any other Brit. Seriously, I didn’t read this as pretentious at all. Just a pet peeve being addressed.Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up on
The issue is mostly one of whether we're talking about an English word borrowed from Korean (a loan word), or a Korean word. At some point it ceases to be the latter and becomes the former. Until that time, the technically correct pronunciation is from the original language. After that point, the new host language has its own correct pronunciation.
but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it, but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".
You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it, but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.
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Il remind you of that next time you tell me my definition is incorrect
I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.i find it amusing hat someone who never fails to argue the definition of a word being discussed, should take the view that definitions are advisory and you can use any definition you like.
but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).
I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.
Actually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!
humbugsActually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).
So, nope.
So, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.humbugs
no it was you ignoring your over whelming desire to prove yourself correct, that is humbug, its more self deception that's your issueSo, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.
That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.Question. What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent. I mean, you foreigners talk funny. Hell, most Americans talk funny, too. I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language. But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?
I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.
its a good point, there is a significant cross over, dependent on the letter sounds you learn as a child, i can't with out stopping my self and concentrating say bottle, it comes out botull, that's the local pronunciation, i have with practise learned to stop dropping letters and slow down my speach, whilst still keeping my accent to some extent, but only for the reason that people in London couldn't understand me at all, when back in my home town in some rough pub, i revert to my original speech patterns, id get punch for being a posh boy other wiseQuestion. What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent. I mean, you foreigners talk funny. Hell, most Americans talk funny, too. I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language. But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?
I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.
You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.
Yeah, that's was kinda my point. There's right and wrong pronunciation, and not much of universal agreement on what the hell those things mean.You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.