short form 3 question

[kenpo_disciple]

In short form 3, why when we do crossing talons we dont execute the knee to the face? Now i know that in the technique forms some techniques dont get completed or some moves are added but is there a specific reason why we dont do the knee here?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Showing the knee would put a move inbetween the marriage of gravity powered elbow in Crossing talon and it's opposite. That opposite is the headbutt in Scraping Hoof which is powered by Reverse marriage of gravity. We sink down to power one blow in one technique and then rise to power the next blow in the next technique. Showing the knee would split these two moves and make this particular opposite a bit harder to see. Also the right knee is shown latter in Locked Wing planting forward while the next technique Crossed Twigs uses a left knee planting backward. Another opposite and reverse...

The missing knee is to make you think, "why is this missing?"

"Kenpo Forms do not represent and imaginary fight, they are there to illustrate the principles of motion with regards to Opposites and Reverses"

 

[Doc]

In short form 3, why when we do crossing talons we dont execute the knee to the face? Now i know that in the technique forms some techniques dont get completed or some moves are added but is there a specific reason why we dont do the knee here?

What do you mean "we?" NEVER assume everyone does anything the same in Kenpo. That would be a big mistake and could stifle your learning process. Look at everything from the perspective of YOUR lessons from YOUR teacher and do not extrapolate them to others.

Not everyone leaves the knee out. The answer lies in what YOUR teachers reason is for leaving it out.

 

[michaeledward]

Does this mean that you execute that knee in this form, Doc?

 

[Doc]

Does this mean that you execute that knee in this form, Doc?

No, but many old shool Kenpoists I know do. I do not do "Short Three" as outlined in the commercial curriculum, although you would recognize the SL-4 interpretation. "Short Three" is the last of the forms NOT dedicated to the 'motion concept,' and we do not teach any of the commercial forms beyond "Short Three."

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

No, but many old shool Kenpoists I know do. I do not do "Short Three" as outlined in the commercial curriculum, although you would recognize the SL-4 interpretation. "Short Three" is the last of the forms NOT dedicated to the 'motion concept,' and we do not teach any of the commercial forms beyond "Short Three."

Wow Doc! No "mother form" Form 4?

 

[Doc]

Wow Doc! No "mother form" Form 4?

From an SL-4 perspective, it's of no value and full of anatomical inconsistencies.

 

[Jim Hanna]

Doc,

You are the only other person besides myself that I can think of who speaks such blasphemy, although my criticism was originally generated from a more instinctive feeling rather than a scientific analysis.

Jim

 

[Doc]

Doc,

You are the only other person besides myself that I can think of who speaks such blasphemy, although my criticism was originally generated from a more instinctive feeling rather than a scientific analysis.

Jim

You know Big Jim, 'blasphemy' is my middle name. Your background keeps you grounded in reality, so it's difficult to slide 'bullshirt' pass you.

 

[kenpoworks]

From an SL-4 perspective, it's of no value and full of anatomical inconsistencies.

Hey Doc, I have not been in here for awhile, glad to see you are still "at it", OK are you really stating that Form Four should be categorised under the heading useless?
Keep stirring the pot, me old china.
Rich

 

[Doc]

Hey Doc, I have not been in here for awhile, glad to see you are still "at it", OK are you really stating that Form Four should be categorised under the heading useless?
Keep stirring the pot, me old china.
Rich

As a whole, yes it's a 'useless' form. There are small elements to it that have validity, but as a complete from, if I attempted to teach it to my students they would riddle me with questions about anatomical and moral discrepancies from the Parker philosophy as they know it. This is the problem with preserving a commercial entity intact and promoting it as 'the kenpo' instead of 'a kenpo.' Because of the business nature of its design, you're constantly running into 'fluff' placed for the business with no regard for its physical effectiveness or moral implications as reflected in many of its techniques, forms, and sets. However in its defense, Mr. Parker hid some jewels of information in that system that once interpreted correctly can send you in a whole new direction. However without a significant base of foundational and advance knowledge, no one would ever find it. But then what do I know?

Stay loose Rich.

 

[pete]

the forms are the text books of a martial art. from times when there was little or no written manuals or books it was the form that was closely guarded by the master, taught precisely to chosen students *indoor students* and passed down to future generations. as the applications or techniques may vary through the years, the forms remained a constant. when a new master decided to alter the form, he would in fact be creating a new style, while those faithful to the original teachings would continue to teach the form as they were taught under the original name.

if that makes sense, the forms in American Kenpo are more like chapters in a text book, since there are several forms rather than one single form to represent the essence of the art.

a complete martial art, as defined by the chinese, must contain striking (da), kicking (ti), takedowns (shuai), and joint locking (qinna). This is so because these skills are mutually supportive and mutually destructive. American Kenpo meets those requirements and catalogues the essence of each of these as chapters within its text book, its forms.

Form 4 is the chapter on striking and kicking. To omit form 4 from the art would leave American Kenpo with an incomplete textbook and thus an art which would be exposed to many common attacks.

 

[kenpoworks]

To omit form 4 from the art would leave American Kenpo with an incomplete textbook and thus an art which would be exposed to many common attacks.

Thats great pete, but what you are indicating is that you have to wait until form four to complete your textbook of common attacks,even after studying a154 SDTs, a dozen or so Sets and a previous 6 forms you are just completing your common attacks folder and still indexing kicking and striking, I think that this work is done at an earlier level of training and that "4" would move us on to a different area of analytical study.
And as for that old "heretic" Doc, if Iam being honest there are areas of "4" that I have questioned other seniors on and had some very unsatisfactory answers , thats probably why they all bug off and do Tai Chi at some point, but Doc Iam sticking with "4" because as you know I don't like walking away from anything ?
Rich
stubborn Old Geordie Git

 

[Flying Crane]

Doc,

You are the only other person besides myself that I can think of who speaks such blasphemy, although my criticism was originally generated from a more instinctive feeling rather than a scientific analysis.

Jim

While our approach is different, i've been in this club for a while...

 

[Doc]

While our approach is different, i've been in this club for a while...

WE'RE ALL GOING TO HELL.

 

[Doc]

Thats great pete, but what you are indicating is that you have to wait until form four to complete your textbook of common attacks,even after studying a154 SDTs, a dozen or so Sets and a previous 6 forms you are just completing your common attacks folder and still indexing kicking and striking, I think that this work is done at an earlier level of training and that "4" would move us on to a different area of analytical study.
And as for that old "heretic" Doc, if Iam being honest there are areas of "4" that I have questioned other seniors on and had some very unsatisfactory answers , thats probably why they all bug off and do Tai Chi at some point, but Doc Iam sticking with "4" because as you know I don't like walking away from anything ?
Rich
stubborn Old Geordie Git

Richie, you're such a pit bull with a bone.

 

[MJS]

No, but many old shool Kenpoists I know do. I do not do "Short Three" as outlined in the commercial curriculum, although you would recognize the SL-4 interpretation. "Short Three" is the last of the forms NOT dedicated to the 'motion concept,' and we do not teach any of the commercial forms beyond "Short Three."

From an SL-4 perspective, it's of no value and full of anatomical inconsistencies

Question for you Doc. Regarding the first statement, am I safe to assume that you do do Short 3, but have made changes to it? Regarding the second statement, are you saying that everything after Short 3 has the anatomical inconsistencies that you're referring to?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Doc]

Question for you Doc. Regarding the first statement, am I safe to assume that you do do Short 3, but have made changes to it? Regarding the second statement, are you saying that everything after Short 3 has the anatomical inconsistencies that you're referring to?

Thanks,

Mike

No sir, I haven't made 'changes' to Short Three. Simply, it was explained and taught to me differently than the version that made it into the commercial system. Yes, everything after Short Form Three has significant irreconcilable anatomical inconsistencies. Certainly there are elements that are acceptable. Even mis-spelled words contained letters that of themselves are correct. Its the useage and spelling that makes the word(s) or applications wrong.

 

[MJS]

No sir, I haven't made 'changes' to Short Three. Simply, it was explained and taught to me differently than the version that made it into the commercial system. Yes, everything after Short Form Three has significant irreconcilable anatomical inconsistencies. Certainly there are elements that are acceptable. Even mis-spelled words contained letters that of themselves correct. Its the useage and spelling that makes the word(s) wrong.

Thanks Doc! One of these days, I need to find my way to CA. As always, its easier to understand things when you can see them up close and in person. It would be good to spend some time, seeing first hand the SL4 method.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Thanks Doc! One of these days, I need to find my way to CA. As always, its easier to understand things when you can see them up close and in person. It would be good to spend some time, seeing first hand the SL4 method.

Mike

It would be my pleasure sir.