Shito-ryu vs. Kenpo

[Fletcher]

I studied American Kenpo for about a year and I recently moved to a different city where I just started taking Shito-ryu. I was wondering if anyone would like to comment on the different strengths and weakness of each or just general differences. I'm not asking which style is better here, I'm just curious about everyone's opinions on the differences between the two.

thanks,
Fletcher

 

[JAMJTX]

Shito Ryu is a traditional Japanese Budo. As such it is highly structured.
You will also find a greater number of kata than in most Japanese/Okinawan styles. American Kenpo stylists tend to frown on Kata and say it is useless. (I think they just don't understand kata but that is another thread).

In Shito Ryu, you will spend much more time developing a foundation of basic skills before learning advanced techniques. My experience in American Kenpo was that little emphasis was placed on developing sound basics.

Shito Ryu was designed for a life time of study, developing mind body and spirit, with the added benefit of learning self defense. You can spend a life time studying and never be considered a master. American Kenpo was designed to learn fast and does not have the depth of Shito Ryu.

 

[still learning]

Hello, I started out in shotokan which is similar to shito-ryu. Very traditional, deep and long stances in practices and kata's.

Having been in Kempo for a little over eight years, our style forcus mostly on inside fighting (close-up and in). Lots of muliply strikes, including takes downs.
Lots of boxing drills. You can call it close quarters fighting style (in ours anyway) . Having experience both I would not like to fight a Kempo guy. I have learn so much more and it is closer to " real style of fighting" . Read any of "Marc,the animal,Macyoung books" this will make you realize what real fighting is all about, and will make you look at your style of martial arts differently. It has me anyway.

It still comes down to the "person who's training" . There will always be different levels of skill in each rank, and conditional levels too. A black belt with no condition against lower ranks who has some may find himself in some difficulty.

Which one to choose? Getting the right instructor is important? Look and experience for yourself? Most schools let you watch. You may find yourself wondering will my style "work" in the real world?

Each of us will have our own experiences........have a good one....Aloha

 

[Touch Of Death]

One fundimental difference in the two styles are the upward blocks. Let me premise this by saying I kind of like Shito-Ryu upward blocks, but Kenpoists won't stand for the leading with the elbow unless they are doing longform one of course (ha ha) Any ways the closest thing Kenpo has to a Shito Ryu upward block would be the high back knuckle with the elbow anchored.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

American Kenpo was designed to learn fast and does not have the depth of Shito Ryu.

ouch man... but then again I guess it didn't hurt that much, I'm pretty shallow (ha ha).
Sean

 

[RRouuselot]

..... American Kenpo was designed to learn fast and does not have the depth of Shito Ryu.

Really?

Why was that?

Do you have any thing to support this claim?

 

[Touch Of Death]

What he was so rudely pointing out is that Shito Ryu would not teach a single Parker type tech (sequence of moves) until months of stance work and hammering of basics. Where as Kenpo gives you a sequence of moves to apply your motion no matter what your skill level. Its simply two different ways of approaching the same thing. Relax... its all good.
Sean

 

[RRouuselot]

What he was so rudely pointing out is that Shito Ryu would not teach a single Parker type tech (sequence of moves) until months of stance work and hammering of basics. Where as Kenpo gives you a sequence of moves to apply your motion no matter what your skill level. Its simply two different ways of approaching the same thing. Relax... its all good.
Sean

I think the teaching method varies from teacher to teacher.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Of course

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

In have trained in traditional karate (shorin, goju, and pseudo-trad kyokushinkai), and continue to value the emphasis they place on putting it all on the table in a simple sequence (i.e., block, punch). For kenpoists not familiar with traditional training methods, (an exaggeration here, but for making a point) it would be like spending 6 months on the beginning of Long Form 1 (short 1 with reverse punches), working on solidifying your stances, sliding or stepping from stance to stance with depth and authority, and digging deep to throw all of what you've got into each and every individual block or punch. Nothing else. Calisthenics, stretching, and just the beginning of Long 1.

I value the sophistication of AK's technical line-up, but have admittedly seen many who are unable to apply it under duress because their understanding of it is superficial, and their body memory of it spread too thin over too much material, during too short a time span. I personally spent about a 5-year period putting new students through an additional white-belt chapter, consisting simply of basics, basics, and more basics. Step thru with rear hand punch, crossing the football field and back; upward block followed by rear hand reverse, etc. This, I felt, gave them a sense of solidity they could then start using with their kenpo basics.

White to White w/ black stripe = kenpo basics/goju basics mix (floor exercises) plus conditioning (calisthenics, makiwara, shields, bags).
White w/ stripe to yellow = jump in to the AK cirriculum, per the book.

Had some good effects, and some not so good. Interesting effect on timing in execution, though.

Instead of the "ba-ba-ba-ba-bam" quick time usually seen in kenpo, without my recommendation to do so, they modified on their own to a more solid, taking-the-time-to-let-it-sink-in approach, timing out like: "Bam. Bam. Ba-bam. Bam." Hired one of my green belts to work with me as a bouncer, and got to see him use this combo of "solidified basics, taking kenpo pathways", and the results were pretty freaking cool to watch. Little slower getting off combos, but it ended up not mattering. The ones that landed, landed hard and took chunks with them on the way out. Literally. Difference between a backfist to the ribs grazing them or breaking them.

Kenpo has one of the most exhaustive vocabularies of the martial arts. It has basics and maneuvers in it that other arts don't have. Once you are familiar with the kenpo basics, you shouldn't have any problem picking up quickly on the programmes of other systems. They might have other distinctions to get used to (deeper stances, different pathways of execution for certain basics), but you won't likely see much that's new...that you haven't seen, in some form, in AK. The great criticism of kenpo is that a lot of the guys get lost in the speed thing, and lose the ability to land some thunder in their blows. If you find yourself (based on an earnest evaluation of your skills) in that place, cross-train in some hard stuff. Could be Trad. karate, kickboxing, whatever. Just pick a thing that has fewer moves, and concentrates on hitting really hard with them. Again, you'll not likely learn much new, but coming at similar material from a different starting point might provide you some different tools with which to improve your APPLICATION of your kenpo arsenal. Remember: Parker wasn't born hiting hard. Training in the islands had a very distinct hard flavor to it, that was cleaned up to soft in later beta versions. He became wicked fast, after he was able to knock your block off. Skipping the elementary power phase to accomplish Parker-esque speed is like trying to drive down the road in a car without getting in it first. Cart before the horse.

Just my thoughts.

D.

 

[The Kai]

I think MR KempoKai has hit the nail on the head. Kenpo is taught fast, while Karate takes more time to lay the foundation

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think MR KempoKai has hit the nail on the head. Kenpo is taught fast, while Karate takes more time to lay the foundation

Kenpoists cringe at the mechanical stage, but it is nescessarry and many answers can be found there; however, trying to instill concepts you just cant do slow requires a bit of advanced training which cannot be experienced in the mechanical stage or even flow. Think of it this way. If you were going to send your own son to do hand to hand combat with another challanger good basics are one thing but he has to have some objective fighting skills as well. If you are starting him out untrained, what will those next six months look like in his training?
Sean

 

[The Kai]

Would'nt you want things ingrained at a "muscle memory" level, rather than the thought process level. If I only had 6 months 4 or 5 techniques worked hard rather than a hundred concepts tried once of twice. My 2 cents

 

[Touch Of Death]

Would'nt you want things ingrained at a "muscle memory" level, rather than the thought process level. If I only had 6 months 4 or 5 techniques worked hard rather than a hundred concepts tried once of twice. My 2 cents

You don't have to convince me. I have trained both and recognize the importance of both methods; however, each have their drawbacks. Don't try to think of Kenpo as a compilation of techs but as one technique excercised against a set 154 attacks. Each attack obviously requires a variation in approach. This variation in response admmitedly requires a tad bit of thinking, but then again this isnt rocket science: up, down, inward, outward, to my right, to my left and I must choose the closest weapon for the closest target, while still getting a desired response. Now that you mention it, this requires no thinking at all if a plan of action is instilled, or rather ingrained into muscle memory and choice of targets based on sensory stimulous. Once again we are talking about the same thing here but with a different approach. :whip:
Sean

 

[BlackCatBonz]

sean....ive never heard kenpo described like that, good way to look at it.

 

[samuri-man]

shito-ryu all the way! (i do renbukan whitch is a varied shuokai [whitch is veried sito-ryu]) so i'm biased but i've seen shoalin kenpo (karate) being done and if it's any thing like american kenpo shito-ryu is far more diverse

 

[Brother John]

Shito Ryu is a traditional Japanese Budo. As such it is highly structured.
You will also find a greater number of kata than in most Japanese/Okinawan styles. American Kenpo stylists tend to frown on Kata and say it is useless. (I think they just don't understand kata but that is another thread).

In Shito Ryu, you will spend much more time developing a foundation of basic skills before learning advanced techniques. My experience in American Kenpo was that little emphasis was placed on developing sound basics.

Shito Ryu was designed for a life time of study, developing mind body and spirit, with the added benefit of learning self defense. You can spend a life time studying and never be considered a master. American Kenpo was designed to learn fast and does not have the depth of Shito Ryu.

Having studied both American Kenpo Karate and Shito-Ryu, I might be able to lend some perspective.
What matters most is what you are wanting to get from your study of the martial arts. Everyone has their own reasons for pursuing anything, especially we martial artists. Few motivations could be considered "wrong" really, except those that promote our lower/base/juvenile predilections.

Shito-Ryu is a very fine style of Karate to devote a study too. It's emphasis is on tradition and power. It has many good beautiful Kata that develop poise, good form, timing and agility.
In my opinion: Shito-Ryu's shortcomings?
Tradition and formality based on 19th century Okinawan/Japanese culture takes precedence over anything else.
It is a Hard style. Speed of adaptation is limited at best.
It's fighting techniques are only mildly related to anything that could be considered realism. It's effectiveness in preparing one for real strife would be the qualities that it engenders (those that I said it's Kata impart), but NOT it's fighting techniques or even it's basics. It's paradigm for training and preparation for handling a physical assault are based on late 19th century idealism.. which is outdated.

By way of comparison: American Kenpo Karate is based on the ideals, creativity and innovativeness of Mr. Ed K. Parker Sr., who devised an elaborate system of karate that finds it's center and foundation in the concepts of Logic, pragmatism and the aim of maximum effect from efficiently applied effort.
Kenpo has beautiful, powerful forms (a term comparable to Kata), though not nearly as many of them. Kenpo's forms are based almost entirely on the fighting techniques that the art contains. By comparison: Kenpo's curriculum is probably at least 2X if not 3X larger/deeper than that of Shito-Ryu. So the thought that Shito Ryu entails a life time of study and that Kenpo does not is entirely misleading. Kenpo is vast and it encompases more KINDS of movement than Shito-Ryu does. Kenpo does have it's tradition and culture, but it's not based on ancient practices. In Kenpo there is a strong emphasis on character development as well.
Also: "JAMJTX" stated that:

American Kenpo was designed to learn fast and does not have the depth of Shito Ryu.[/

Makes it blatently obvious that he's never studied Kenpo, or at least not very long before dropping out.
He also stated that:

My experience in American Kenpo was that little emphasis was placed on developing sound basics.

This proves to me his very limited exposure to American Kenpo Karate.

Try to get all the facts before moving forward.
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Don't try to think of Kenpo as a compilation of techs but as one technique excercised against a set 154 attacks. Each attack obviously requires a variation in approach.
Sean

I have to admit that many have made a good point. There is a trend amonst Kenpo instructors, I THINK, to skim the basics to get to the rest. This is a shame!!!! I believe that the #1 most important thing is the basics! The #2 most important thing?
The basics.

Sean: I like what You said here: I think that Kenpo's greatest strength is in it's ability to adapt, individually and systemically.
It's like the lesson we learn in Biology:
the organism that can't adapt, dies.
the organism that can, lives.
The organism that adapts best, Thrives.

Kenpo is all about adaptation.
BUT: If the BASICS aren't 100% sound and ingrained, then the rest of the art will show it! PERIOD. It's like building a skyscraper. If the foundation isn't 100% then the rest of what you build above it will be faulty at best.

Your Brother
John

 

[RRouuselot]

Shito-Ryu is a very fine style of Karate to devote a study too. It's emphasis is on tradition and power. It has many good beautiful Kata that develop poise, good form, timing and agility.
In my opinion: Shito-Ryu's shortcomings?
Tradition and formality based on 19th century Okinawan/Japanese culture takes precedence over anything else.
It is a Hard style. Speed of adaptation is limited at best.
It's fighting techniques are only mildly related to anything that could be considered realism. It's effectiveness in preparing one for real strife would be the qualities that it engenders (those that I said it's Kata impart), but NOT it's fighting techniques or even it's basics. It's paradigm for training and preparation for handling a physical assault are based on late 19th century idealism.. which is outdated.

First off let me say that for all intents and purposes Shito Ryu is essential a “Japanese” art based on an Okinawan art and not really Okinawan any more per say. Much of the “ura” waza have been scrapped off to make way for safer tournament style training.
I have to add that Japanese dojo and Japanese style based dojo spend waaaay too much time on “basics” kicks, blocks, punches, etc. We call this “junbi undo” = calisthenics. It’s like doing an hour of push up and calling it fighting.

In our dojo we do “junbi undo” as a warm up and then move on to actual training techniques.


Shito Ryu has all the cultural trappings and rituals or Japanese culture. It is therefore an extension of Japanese ideas and not Okinawan.

In Japanese society and dojo students are not encouraged to ask questions….in fact they are practically discouraged from it since asking questions is seen as questioning authority. This is simply not done in traditional Japanese culture.

Due to this fact it prohibits learning quickly.

In my teachers dojo (he is Okinawan) questions are encouraged, they are expected… in fact it is part of the 10 Guiding Principles of our dojo. “Questions should be asked freely, always strive to understand what is being taught”.

This principle is pretty much in exact opposition to the Japanese line of thinking.

As far as preparation for the “modern world”….well people have not changed too much in the way of kinesiology over the last 1,000 years or so and pretty much move, punch, kick and grab in the same way. I don’t think 19th Century idealism has much to do with actually fighting. I think it has to do more with “cultural/martial geneocide” than anything else. People went from doing “jutsu” to doing “do”. However, many teachers and schools still teach “jutsu”. I could go on for pages about this but I don’t think Bob has the band width to handle it.

If people compare old out dated arts to modern ones like the UFC/MMA/NHB stuff and think…. “all that old stuff are “museum arts”, they can’t adapt to the modern way of fighting”.

Think again….Look at the rules for Greek Pankration if you want to see the “REAL” tough guys. They made the UFC look like a Girl Scout Jamboree!



As with any style the more you advance the more difficult the progression so one has to look inward instead of outward. If people look at an art and say “well this art lacks this or that” then it is their own fault for not looking deeper and discovering more of the art.

In my opinion a true martial artist will never say this or that art lacks something. I am not trying to insult anyone by saying this but I think most people are used to having things served up to them and not used having to do the “digging” themselves. I would ask my teacher “what does this move imply?”….his answer was usually “what do you think it means?”. He wasn’t trying to be a smart *** nor was he trying to cavalier aobut my question. He wanted me to use my head for something other than a target for my fellow student’s punches. So I would go and think about the move and come back and ask again, he would give me a hint or two and I would think again. Eventually I would get enough clues to put it together or he would just do the technique on me very quickly and painfully and then I had to figure it out from where I felt pain. Either way I never forgot the technique and it made my learning progress quickly.

When I got shodan I thought “well I know everything there is now” only to be handed my *** by someone who knew more shortly afterwards. There is always more in your art to learn….always. I have found in my own training that every time one question gets answered 4 or 5 more seem to pop up, one door closes and another opens. My training is always evolving and therefore “my art” is too.

 

[Brother John]

A very thought provoking response sir, Thank you.

Your Brother
John