Motobuha Shito Ryu (info wanted)

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Big Game

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I am looking for info on Motobuha Shito Ryu. The Soke of the style ( Shiho Karano Ryu )I'm training in, studied Motobuha Shito Ryu while in Japan and was the second American to receive a black belt in this style. My Soke, Soke Reidner, went on to study other various styles which led him to develop Shiho Karano Ryu.

I am interested in learning the Japanese history of the styles that encompass Shiho Karano Ryu. Mainly what I would like to do is look at some of the similar katas and techniques that are similar.

If you know of any books, websites, or info please let me know.

Thanks
 
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RyuShiKan

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Oh God.. not another foreigner claiming to be a Soke :rolleyes:


For some information on the dubious claims of Albert Church and Kuniba go here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sea...d=160085&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

As for finding anything about the arts that make up Shiho Karano Ryu I doubt you will find anything that can be authenticated here in Japan.
Churchs claims were just as hard to corroborate so I doubt Riedners will be any easier.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Soke:
Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements
by William M. Bodiford
Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."


Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise because in premodern and modern Japan the term represents different (yet related) meanings and connotations depending on the diverse contexts in which it appears. We can distinguish several different patterns of usage associated with the term soke throughout Japanese history.3 For this reason, when describing soke in English (or, rather, when arguing about its meaning) it is useful first to chronicle the many ways that this word has been used in the historical record. Then one can better evaluate the ways that this term has been conceptualized by modern writers and applied (or misapplied) in contemporary situations.

Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin zongjia) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.

For most of early Japanese history the privileges of power, wealth, and civilization were controlled exclusively by the court, the aristocrats, and the Buddhist clergy, all three of which reinforced one another in mutual dependence. As Buddhist clerics developed their combined exoteric-esoteric (ken-mitsu) form of tantra, they gave rise to a shared "culture of secret transmission" (Stone, 97-152). In other words, Buddhist pedagogical systems in which tantric rituals were taught via oral initiations (kuden) available only to members of exclusive master-disciple lineages became the normative teaching method across elite society (Nishiyama 1982b, 146-147). Within this culture, the arts of civilization prized most by wealthy nobles became the exclusive property of certain families. For example, the Nijo and Reizei branches of the aristocratic Fujiwara family each taught and maintained control over mutually exclusive systems of initiation into the mysteries of Japanese poetics (waka). Lower down on the economic ladder, designated merchant families exercised exclusive commercial control over the production and distribution of certain types of manufactured goods used by aristocrats, such as extravagant ceramics (for example, raku ware; Nishiyama 1982b, 51). Those families maintained their hereditary monopolies through the protection and patronage of local nobles or of the court.

These families operated much like corporate entities in which many affiliated kinship groups functioned in unison. Among the members of the united kinship groups only the individual successor--usually the oldest son--of the current family head received full initiation into the secrets of the family craft. Even if proper male progeny did not exist, economic necessity demanded that the main family line always continue since hereditary authority rested with that family alone. Whenever required, therefore, another male from one of the affiliated groups would be brought in and designated as heir to succeed the head of the family. The heir, whether related by blood or adopted, was responsible for maintaining the unity of the corporate families, maintaining their commercial monopoly, and maintaining their good relations with their patrons. Most of all he was responsible for preserving the secret texts, special tools, and knowledge of the oral initiations that constituted his family's exclusive lore. The legitimate possessors of that exclusive lore, both the main family itself as a multi-generational entity, and the individual current head of the family were called the soke. Use of this term was extremely limited, however, until after the establishment of the Tokugawa peace in 1603 provided the conditions for the development of new, more elaborate systems of familial privilege throughout the land.

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) of Japanese history, especially during the eighteenth century, many new types of artistic and cultural activities came under the domination of families that exercised proprietary authority over the performance of those arts and endeavors by others. These new familial lineages, which essentially operated as commercial guilds, referred to themselves as soke. The leading expert on this subject is a Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke. Early in his career, Nishiyama wrote two seminal studies of soke families and the ways they exercised their authority during this period of Japanese history: Iemoto monogatari (Iemoto Stories, 1956; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982a) and Iemoto no kenkyu (Researches in the Iemoto System, 1960; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982b).4 Although Nishiyama settled on the term iemoto, in the Tokugawa-period texts he studied the words iemoto and soke were used interchangeably, without any distinction in meaning (Nishiyama 1982b, 15). Both words were used to refer to the main lineage that asserted proprietary authority over a commercial guild or to refer to the person who had attained full initiation as the current legitimate head of that lineage.

Nishiyama cites several factors that contributed to the development of familial lineages (i.e., soke) as commercial guilds. The Tokugawa regime placed governmental authority in the hands of an upper echelon of warrior families who maintained their positions of power through assertions of hereditary privilege and attempts to enforce rigid codes of social distinctions. These new warrior elites readily accepted similar assertions of familial authority over the codification and teaching of artistic endeavors (Nishiyama 1982b, 91-92). Moreover, the warrior rulers patronized many new performative arts and forms of amusement that had developed independently from and, thus, outside the control of the old aristocratic families. It was the teachers of these new amusements--arts such as tea ceremony (chanoyu), flower arranging (ikebana), chess (shogi), Noh theater, verse (haikai), special forms of music and dance, and so forth--that most quickly asserted familial control over their teaching and over their performance by others (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-140). Finally, the long period of peace produced many unemployed former warriors (ronin) who could seek employment as junior instructors in these guilds; at the same time, the end of incessant warfare promoted the economic prosperity that enabled townsmen and rural landowners to amass surplus wealth that they could spend as pupils of these arts.

The existence of a network of junior instructors (i.e., natori) who taught in the name of the soke is a crucial feature that distinguished Tokugawa-period soke families from their earlier counterparts (Nishiyama 1982b, 106). During the Tokugawa period, instruction in the special skills associated with a particular artistic endeavor was marketed through networks of branch instructors who paid royalties and license fees to the soke and who were organized into a pyramid-like hierarchical structure with the soke on top. The soke asserted absolute authority over the branch instructors and indirect authority over their students by controlling what, how, and when subjects could be taught and by restricting access to the most advanced lore, to which the soke alone was privy. Nishiyama labeled the social structures associated with this type of exclusive familial control and networks of branch instructors the iemoto system (iemoto seido). He saw it as a unique feature of Japanese feudalism that exerted a strong influence over the development of many traditional Japanese arts even until modern times (Nishiyama 1982b, 20-21).

These Tokugawa-period artistic lineages can be likened to commercial guilds because they earned money from every single person who participated in their particular school's craft or art throughout the entire country. Nishiyama (1982b, 16) neatly summarizes the commercial rights (kenri) of these familial guilds as follows:

1. Rights regarding the techniques (waza) of the art, such as the right to keep it secret, the right to control how and when it is performed, and rights over the repertoire of its curriculum and its choreography (kata).

2. Rights over instructors (kyoju), over initiation rituals and documents (soden), and over the awarding of diplomas and licenses (menkyo).

3. The right to punish (chobatsu) and to expel (hamon) students.

4. The right to control uses of costumes, of stage names or artistic pseudonyms, and so forth.

5. The right to control facilities and special equipment or tools used in the art.

6. Exclusive rights to the monetary income and social status resulting from the preceding five items.

For almost every art or amusement patronized by the ruling elite, there existed only a limited number of these familial guilds, each one of which enforced the above rights over anyone who practiced that art throughout the entire kingdom.5 No one could legally perform a play, a song, a musical piece, or practice any other art in public without either joining the soke's school or paying fees for temporary permission (ichinichi soden). Enforcement of these exclusive rights enabled soke families to control huge populations of students across all strata of society. Nishiyama argues that from the middle of the eighteenth century these guilds provided a government-regulated medium for the distribution of cultural knowledge within which people assigned to different social classes (samurai of various ranks, townsmen, merchants, priests, wealthy farmers, rural warriors, etc.) could interact with one another on a near-equal footing (Nishiyama 1982b, 531; 1997, 204-208).

Nishiyama's research demonstrates that the near-monopoly control over the teaching of peaceful arts exercised by Tokugawa-period soke effectively prevented the proliferation of rival schools. In short, where soke existed, there were no new schools. The very creation of new schools repudiated any notion of soke authority (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-137). Seen in this light, it is obvious that the word soke in premodern Japanese documents could never be translated into English as "founder." The notion of "founder" is even less appropriate in modern Japan.

After 1868, when Japan became organized as a modern state, the government formally recognized the legal rights of soke (a.k.a. iemoto) families to control the copyright of all musical scores, theatrical plays, textbooks, and artistic works produced by members of their guilds (Nishiyama 1982b, 16). In this way, the terms soke and iemoto acquired legal definitions as designations for the modern representatives of the limited number of families who could provide historical documentation that they had controlled these kinds of commercial guilds during the Tokugawa period. To maintain their copyrights, the leaders of these families had to register with the government as legal entities. At the same time that they acquired copyrights, they lost their previous ability to restrict the teaching or performance of their arts by people from outside their guild. They became just one school or performance group among many. While they can restrict unauthorized use of their own name and their own historical resources, they have no legal power to inhibit competition. Today, as long as there is no copyright infringement, anyone can write new instructional guides to tea ceremony or any other traditional art. Anyone is free to devise new methods for practicing them.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.

Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.

Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost.

Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."

Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

Pretty informative for just 3,416 words.:D
 

arnisador

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I found it quite interesting when I learned that soke referred to non-martial traditions as well. From hearing how it's used in the States you'd think it meant any founder or possibly and head of a martial arts system.
 
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yilisifu

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My Lord! THAT was really informative! Thank you.

.......You've been immersing yourself in Japanese culture again, haven't you?;)
 

Cthulhu

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I've always taken the term soke to be equivalent to 'inheritor'. I remember reading somewhere that the current soke of the Katori Shinto Ryu (may not be quite so current...old source) wasn't active in the system. The head instructor was a man by the name of Otsuka(sp?), but he wasn't the soke.

Cthulhu
 
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Big Game

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Thanks for all your responses. Since I am new to this style and it is the only one available in my area, please help me to understand if this is in fact a real style. I have copied the history of the style to give some background.


Soke began training in May of 1962, studying Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu Karate while in the U.S. Air Force. While stationed in Japan he studied mostly under a Japanese Air Force (JSDAF) NCO named Kayo-San and with fellow American student Richard P. Bailargeon. He also had opportunity to study with Soke Kuniba. Though many American servicemen studied karate in Japan at this time, few were able to take advantage of this opportunity as much as Soke Riedner. Before returning to the U.S., he was able to learn most of the kata of the Motobu-Ha system as well as some Kobudo from Soke Kuniba.



In January 1965 Soke Riedner received his 1st Dan from Kuniba becoming the second American to do so. After his tour in the Orient, Soke began attending college and to also study Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu under Shihan James A. Benko. He still continued his pursuit of Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu and earned his 2nd Dan in that style while also earning his 4th Dan in Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu in January 1969.



In 1969 Soke began to work with Dr. R.J. Brown. Under Dr. Brown Soke received training in the Chinese branch of Kenpo and received his 3rd Dan in 1975 and 4th Dan in Aka Ryu Shakai Kenpo in 1978. Also during this period while living in South Carolina, Soke was able to make trips to Charleston, S.C. to train under Harold Martin. Martin was Soke-Dai of the Kamishin Ryu system. Kamishin Ryu was founded by Soke Albert C. Church and is the combination of Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu, Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu and an Art he inherited from Kooh C. Kim called Shaolinji Tetseken Ryu Kempo. It was Soke Church who awarded Dr. Riedner a 5th Dan in Kamishin Ryu in 1978 and recognized him as Shodai-Soke of Shiho Karano Ryu on March 13, 1978. Soke Riedner has continued to study both hard and soft fist arts receiving his black belts in both American Goju and Isshin Ryu.



In June of 1980 Soke Church passed away, leaving Dr. Riedner the full sokeship of Shiho Karano Ryu. This position was further confirmed in 1988 when Sigong Andrew P. Tamper issued a letter of recognition to Soke Riedner and the Shiho Karano system. Sigong Tamper is the inheritor of the Chinese Yee Chong system.



Besides pursuing martial arts studies, Soke Riedner has achieved much in his academic career. Earning his B.A. and M.A. from Bob Jones University, another M.A. from Columbia Bible College, and finally his M.Div., Ph.D. and L.H.D. from Great Plains Baptist College. Armed with this education Dr. Riedner was awarded an appointment as a CAP/USAF Chaplain at the rank of Major. He is also a retired Army Reserve NCO. This background of hard and soft fist arts, education and military service has prepared Soke Riedner to lead an organization with the scope and emphasis of the CBBA/SKKI.









Perhaps the most influential person in the history of Shiho Karano Ryu is Soke Siyogo Kuniba. Though he was not the instructor that Soke Riedner may have spent the most time with, his style, his students, and his organization provided much of what has become the CBBA/SKKI.



Born in 1934 to a samurai family, his father Kosei Kuniba was a noted martial artist. Kunibas father began his training under karate legend Choki Motobu at age 14. Ten years later he moved to Tokyo, Japan. At that time he started using the Japanese pronunciation of the family name, Kuniba, for his son. In 1940 they moved again, this time Osaka where his father established the Seishin-Kai Dojo. Unlike most karate schools of this period Soke Kuniba had an open door policy at his school. Not only did many of the great martial arts teachers of that day find a welcome to teach there but he also sent Siyogo Kuniba to other schools to learn what he could. Karate was not the only art that Kuniba was exposed to as he also studied Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Kendo, and Iaido.





In 1958 Kosei Kuniba died and left the family system of Motobu-Ha to his son Siyogo, but at only 24 years of age it was required that Teuro Hayashi act as president of the Seishin Kai. This occurred only four years before Soke Riedner began training in Motobu Ha Shito Ryu. Until Kuniba began his relationship with Hayashi, he had studied mostly from the Shuri line of karate. Hayashi on the other hand had done extensive training in Goju and Fukien White Crane. When Dr. Riedner trained under Kuniba he learned almost exclusively Shorin Ryu (Shito Ryu) kata. Later Kuniba added much of the Goju and White Crane forms to his style, changing the name to Kuniba Ha Shito Ryu. Hayashi also became Soke of his own style, called Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu.



Soke Kuniba was the sponsor of Albert C. Church to receive recognition as Soke of Kamishin Ryu and Inheritor of the Shaolinji Tetseken Kempo system, and appointed Church as an instructor of the Seishin Ryu Ju-Jitsu, Seishin Mugei Ryu Iaido and Shito Ryu Karate. These events took place January 1, 1970, only eight years after Dr. Riedner had trained in Japan. About this time Soke Kuniba was becoming more involved with his American students eventually moving to Virginia. He continued to research and develop his martial arts system. In 1991 he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Soke Kuniba died from this disease the next year leaving behind and unparalleled legacy.









Albert C. Church (1930-1980) was a true pioneer in American martial arts, beginning his training in 1939 in Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu. He studied under Sagaru Yokohoto for three years. In 1949 he renewed his involvement as a marine at Camp Pendelton. While serving in the military Church had an opportunity to study in the Orient. From 1950 to 1952 he was a student of Kim C. Kooh(?) who taught his family art of Shaolinji Testsu Kempo. Later he studied Kodokan Judo.



After returning to the U.S., he taught at various schools. Then in 1967 he was called back to Japan by Kim C. Kooh(?) who passed on his family art to Church. It was also during this period that he began training under Siyogo Kuniba. Kuniba taught Church Seishin Ryu Judo and Ju-Jitsu, Mugei Ryu Iaido and Motobu Ha Shito Ryu Karate with Teuro Hayashi. It was Kuniba who sponsored Church as a Soke with the Zen Nippon Soke Kai. While in Japan Soke Church renewed his training in Hakko Ryu under the systems founder Ryuho Okuyama.



In 1969 Soke Church returned to the states and in 1970 he unified all of his previous training under the banner of Kamishin Ryu. In Japan many people earned the title of Soke and have started systems without such recognition; however, it has always been the test of time that has been the final judge as to the true value of a style. Kamishin Ryu has certainly proven itself to be a true martial art in every sense of the word. Though Soke Church passed away only eleven years after founding his style, his impact on the martial arts community continues to be felt.

Kamishin Ryu is not merely a karate style or even merely a mixture of Karate and Ju-Jitsu. Rather it is a traditional Ryu in the sense that it is comprised of several Ryu all based on the governing principles of the Ryu. Originally Dr. Church called his association Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu, which means Japanese Ancient Martial Ways Divine Heart Style. This Ryu contained a Karate element as well as Ju-Jitsu, weapons and the Samurai sword. It was Soke Church who first conferred the title of Soke on Dr. Riedner and his history and organizational structure played a major role in shaping Shiho Karano Ryu. It is also significant that Soke Church was a Shihan in most of the individual elements that went into the formation of Shiho Karano Ryu. Thus, his sponsorship must be considered as being of the highest order. If the Shiho Karano Ryu had been deficient in any way, no one would have recognized it more readily than Soke Church.







Richard Bailargeon is important to Shiho Karano Ryu for two reasons, First, he was Soke Riedners senior in Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu Karate and secondly because he provided many contacts with other martial artists after they returned to the United States. In Japan Shihan Bailargeon preceded Soke Riedner in studying with Soke Kuniba and his assistant instructor Kay San. Though Kayo San was Dr. Riedners Sensei in Japan, Shihan Bailargeon had entered Kay Sans club first and had earned his 2nd Dan and returned to the states while Dr. Riedner was still a brown belt. Shihan Bailargeon acted as a mentor for Dr. Riedner as he began his training.



When Shihan Bailargeon returned to America in 1964, he was the Seishin Kai (Soke Kunibas organization) senior American Black Belt. Acting as Kunibas American representative, he started the American Branch of the Seishin Kai Karate Union and formed an alliance with Shihan James A. Benko of Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu under the canopy of the HMAF- Hakko Ryu Martial Arts Federation, US Branch in 1965. This partnership also brought both Dr. Riedner and Shihan Bailargeon into contact with Soke Albert C. Church, who was also an HMAF member.



Though Shihan Bailargeon eventually went his own way and formed his national Union of Karate and Ju-Jitsu, his influence in the early years of both the development of Shiho Karano Ryu and the Sieshin Kai organization cannot be understated. The Seishin Kai in America was later led by Soke Church and then by Soke Kuniba himself. It is still a strong force in the American Martial Arts community.
 

arnisador

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To be honest, the text above raises many issues and concerns.

However, if you're happy with the instruction, keep going--but visit a few other schools/seminars so you have a better basis for comparison.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Cthulhu
I've always taken the term soke to be equivalent to 'inheritor'. I remember reading somewhere that the current soke of the Katori Shinto Ryu (may not be quite so current...old source) wasn't active in the system. The head instructor was a man by the name of Otsuka(sp?), but he wasn't the soke.

Cthulhu


That's correct.

In the Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu the Soke may or may not train in the system.

The current head instructor is Mr. Otake who is one of the, it not the best swordsman I have ever seen.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by yilisifu
My Lord! THAT was really informative! Thank you.

.......You've been immersing yourself in Japanese culture again, haven't you?;)


Just tryin' to edjubakate myself;)
 
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chufeng

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I'm not trying to start a war, or anything like it, but there is a remarkable resemblance between Big Game's avatar and a swastika...

Is there some significance to the direction of the "legs" on a swastika...and where did it originate?

Big Game...I'm not attacking you or your organization...
The swastika predates Naziism by centuries and can be found in many ancient texts...I just thought it an interesting point of discussion...

Now, I'll just sit back and wait for the heat...

:asian:
chufeng
 
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Angus

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Originally posted by chufeng
I'm not trying to start a war, or anything like it, but there is a remarkable resemblance between Big Game's avatar and a swastika...

Is there some significance to the direction of the "legs" on a swastika...and where did it originate?

Big Game...I'm not attacking you or your organization...
The swastika predates Naziism by centuries and can be found in many ancient texts...I just thought it an interesting point of discussion...

Now, I'll just sit back and wait for the heat...

:asian:
chufeng

Yes, but there is a big difference between the ancient swastika and the nazi swastika. The ancient swastika had 4 legs pointing counter clockwise (like big game's symbol), and was meant to mean peace/harmony; the nazi's derived their swastika from the same idea, however they wanted the antithesis, hence reversing the legs to point clockwise and reversing the meaning to mean war/hate.

If it's pointing counter clockwise, they probably aren't nazi's. :D
 
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Big Game

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First off I am not offended, when I first saw the logo I thought it resembled a swastika as well. It is not and we are not nazi's. Here is an explanation of our logo:

The LOGO

Another important aspect of Shiho Karano can be seen in the logo. Shiho Karano can also mean "Circle Of Readiness" or "4 Way Defense". The logo of Shiho Karano expresses this concept very well.

The symbol is encompassed by a circle, reflecting continuous motion and flow.
In the circle are 4 arrows, each giving the impression of motion.

The arrows are moving to the left, expressing an openness to knowledge.

In our system we don't recognize our style as having all the answers, or the best techniques. We are open to other styles techniques, and as we get up in rank, we are encouraged to learn about why other styles do things. In other words if we see something we like, we can incoporate it.
 
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RyuShiKan

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The swastika is a perversion of the "manji" used in Budhism.
(see gif below)

One faces to the left, the other to the right.




- MANJI -


The origin of the "manji" symbol
The manji is a common Buddhist symbol, in Japan they are used on maps to mark the locations of Buddhist temples, and you can commonly find them in Buddhist temples or on Buddhist artworks. In Asia the Buddhist connotation is, of course, much more prominent than the Nazi one. The symbol originally comes from ancient India and though it does have a common origin with the Swastika, they have completely different use and meaning.

The reason why Shorinji Kempo uses the manji Shorinji
Kempo uses this manji as its symbol, in Japan practitioners wear it on their "dougi" and one is displayed in training halls at the "front" of the hall. The manji is used because of its Buddhist connotations, and the fact that Shorinji Kempo seeks to follow in the tradition of the original Shaolin Temple, where the Indian priest Bodhidharma taught the Chinese monks to develop both their physical and spiritual sides. Because of its connotations in the West, a different mark is worn on the uniform of practicioners in most countries outside of Japan.

The meaning of the "manji"
In Buddhism the manji signifies the source of life, the ever-changing universe. According to Buddhism, all things in the universe are, like Heaven and Earth or Yin and Yang, at the same time opposing and yet balanced elements. The vertical line in the manji connects Heaven and Earth, the horizontal line connects Yin and Yang. This signifies that when these join, forming a "+", a power arises which gives birth to all things. This means that all things result from the interaction of these forces, much in the same way that Physics says that all actions and substance results from the interaction of particles and forces, such as gravity, etc. (note: I know virtually nothing of current physics and so this may not be an accurate statement). As the universe is in continual change, the trailing lines are added to the manji to indicate that it is in perpetual swirling motion, and the manji is complete as a symbol of the universe and its every-changing nature. In Buddhism they say "the only certainty is change".
 

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RyuShiKan

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Swastika..........
 

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RyuShiKan

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Maybe we should start a new thread called "Dojo patches and what they mean....."
 

Cthulhu

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Just tryin' to edjubakate myself;)

Good lord...when I first read this, I read another 'k' where the 't' is.

Whew! :D

Cthulhu
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Cthulhu
Good lord...when I first read this, I read another 'k' where the 't' is.

Sorry about my spellin'......must be my cajun come through.
 

Cthulhu

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Sorry about my spellin'......must be my cajun come through.

It wasn't your spelling...it was what I thought you spelled ;)

Cthulhu
 

JAMJTX

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I just found this now, as I am new to this board.
Your history of Motobuha Shito Ryu is some-what accurate.
It is also true that Mr. Riedener was the 2nd American to receive a Shodan from Soke Kuniba. I also believe that the rest of your history on the training of Mr. Riedner is accurate.
Shihan Baillargeon was the senior American in the Seishinkai and acted as U.S. Director. In 1974 he left to form the National Karate and Jiu Jitsu Union. And the association with HMAF is accurate, although this was done without Kuniba's approval or knowledge.
The only real problem is the dubious history of Albert Church. The ridiculous story about inheriting a Chinese art from a Korean and being recognized as a Japanese Soke is far from the truth. This so called "Kuniba Scroll" recognizing Church as Soke does not exist and Kuniba always denied giving such a scroll.

Also, Church never headed the Seishin Kai. Once he returned from Japan, with a Shihan certification from Kuniba, he broke off contact with Kuniba and his Kamishin Ryu was formed shortly after. Darrell Craig was appointed U.S. Director of Seishin Kai and served from 1974-1980.

I do believe that Mr. Riedener had access to some some of the best instructors in the country and perhaps the world at that time. There was a lot happening in the Carolinas with the HMAF and Seishin Kai teachers working together. Also, this was the cradle of Kuniba's "Goshin Budo" (now Kuniba Ryu Goshindo). Riedner was there in the midst of it all. (I even have some pages of old newsletters with a photo of him from 1969). I think if he is atleast staying true to the technical training he received from Kuniba and Baillargeon then you can get excellent training from him.
 
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