OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #61
It can go on forever. And as long as foolish people want to believe foolish things, it will.
- Status
kamishinkan
Green Belt
I GUESS! Or It could continue if foolish people refuse to accept the truth at hand.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #63
You have no proof!
You have people who say they enhanced a copy of a copy of a document and compared it to other unidentified, unverified documents.
If this is enough proof for you, that is a sad commentary on your inteligence, but so be it.
You have people who say they enhanced a copy of a copy of a document and compared it to other unidentified, unverified documents.
If this is enough proof for you, that is a sad commentary on your inteligence, but so be it.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #64
Let's look at some other ridiculous claims made by Church:
"Albert C. Church (1930-1980) was a true pioneer in American martial arts, beginning his training in 1939 in Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu."
Where did he train in "Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu" (which is incorrect spelling of the art) in 1939? And with who?
The earliest known introduction of Daito Ryu to the U.S. was in the 1960's by students of Yonezawa Sensei, and some even question that. Even today there is only a handful of Daito Ryu schools in the U.S. and they are just "study groups". There are no licensed instructors.
I would like to see verification of this claim.
"Albert C. Church (1930-1980) was a true pioneer in American martial arts, beginning his training in 1939 in Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu."
Where did he train in "Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu" (which is incorrect spelling of the art) in 1939? And with who?
The earliest known introduction of Daito Ryu to the U.S. was in the 1960's by students of Yonezawa Sensei, and some even question that. Even today there is only a handful of Daito Ryu schools in the U.S. and they are just "study groups". There are no licensed instructors.
I would like to see verification of this claim.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #65
KAMISHIN
This information was provided to ISHH by Ted Petit, the "soke" who has apparently conned Guy Power into believing this stuff too.
Since when did Albert Church inherit a Korean form of 'Daito Ryu'?
If it was "Daito Ryu" that Church inherited, then that would pretty much go against Church's story of the system being Chinese and passed on to a Korean before him.
The nonsense about Church, Kuniba and Hayashi forming a "grandmasters certification board" is also nonsense. Church did this on his own and claimed he had support from Kuniba and Hayashi. This kind of thing just is not done in Japan.
Albert Church is responsible for a long line of fake "soke" here in the U.S.
He helped Rod sacharnoski get his start and now his "inheritors" are lending the Church name to this and other "Sokeship boards".
I would very much like to see Guy Power, or anyone with any legitmate senior rankings and knowldge of the customs and traditions of budo come to the board and legitimize this kind of thing.
Remember that it was Petit who submitted the so-called "Kuniba Scroll" to Mr. Power for translation. In keeping this kind of company, I am shocked to see that someone in Mr. Power's position would lend his name to help give him credability. Unless of course he is also now in the business of selling "Sokeships".
Is there anyone willing to come on the board and stake thier reputation by stating that Ted Petit is a legitimate Soke?
What's also interesting here is that the ISHH claims to have posession the "Kuniba Scroll" naming Church Soke of this art.
Maybe we will get to see it after all.
- An American by the name of Albert Church inherited a traditional branch of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujitsu from a Korean master Kin Chi "Kooh" who was already a grandmaster, having inherited a pre-meijii system, and Gunshi Church was investigated and verified as the legitimate inheritor of Kooh's system by the late Soke (Gunshi) Shogo Kuniba of Japan.
- Soke (Gunshi) Shogo Kuniba awarded a certificate to Albert Church recognizing him as an inheritor. (this certification is on file )
- Soke (Gunshi) Kuniba, along with Soke (Gunshi) Hayashi of Japan joined with Soke (Gunshi) Church to create an international grandmasters certification board.
- Then, upon his death in the 1970's, his art was inherited by one of his senior students and son-in-law Robert Kelly, who then passed over his position as Gunshi or Headfamily to one Gunshi Ted Petit, making him the only person of the Kamishinryu (Soke Church's style) who is a legitimate headfamily with the authority to sponcer first generation founders.
- We have included a special section on this site that explains this system and the key figures who are and were involved in it, click on following link to go there:
This information was provided to ISHH by Ted Petit, the "soke" who has apparently conned Guy Power into believing this stuff too.
Since when did Albert Church inherit a Korean form of 'Daito Ryu'?
If it was "Daito Ryu" that Church inherited, then that would pretty much go against Church's story of the system being Chinese and passed on to a Korean before him.
The nonsense about Church, Kuniba and Hayashi forming a "grandmasters certification board" is also nonsense. Church did this on his own and claimed he had support from Kuniba and Hayashi. This kind of thing just is not done in Japan.
Albert Church is responsible for a long line of fake "soke" here in the U.S.
He helped Rod sacharnoski get his start and now his "inheritors" are lending the Church name to this and other "Sokeship boards".
I would very much like to see Guy Power, or anyone with any legitmate senior rankings and knowldge of the customs and traditions of budo come to the board and legitimize this kind of thing.
Remember that it was Petit who submitted the so-called "Kuniba Scroll" to Mr. Power for translation. In keeping this kind of company, I am shocked to see that someone in Mr. Power's position would lend his name to help give him credability. Unless of course he is also now in the business of selling "Sokeships".
Is there anyone willing to come on the board and stake thier reputation by stating that Ted Petit is a legitimate Soke?
What's also interesting here is that the ISHH claims to have posession the "Kuniba Scroll" naming Church Soke of this art.
Maybe we will get to see it after all.
Moderator Note:
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our posting rules, specifically here.
Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Please also feel free to use the Report To Moderator feature by clicking the red triangle at the top right of every post.
MartialTalk rules of conduct are always available at the Rules link on the blue menu bar at the top of every page.
Thank you.
-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our posting rules, specifically here.
Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Please also feel free to use the Report To Moderator feature by clicking the red triangle at the top right of every post.
MartialTalk rules of conduct are always available at the Rules link on the blue menu bar at the top of every page.
Thank you.
-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-
Miles
Senior Master
I have no dog in this fight, so to speak as I train in TKD and don't know anything about these folks except what I've read over the years.
But I do have several questions: How proficient was Church? How proficient is Reidner? People can argue all they want about paper, what about their respective abilities?
Miles
But I do have several questions: How proficient was Church? How proficient is Reidner? People can argue all they want about paper, what about their respective abilities?
Miles
kamishinkan
Green Belt
The information from ISHH website was put together by the person who owns the site NOT anyone from Kamishin Ryu. Most of the information posted there was pieced together incorrectly by the ISHH.
As usual you can't do anything about what people say on the net. Kamishin Ryu does not claim ANY direct relationship to Daito Ryu other than techniques we train in that was learned. Daito/Hakko Ryu Jujutsu.
As usual you can't do anything about what people say on the net. Kamishin Ryu does not claim ANY direct relationship to Daito Ryu other than techniques we train in that was learned. Daito/Hakko Ryu Jujutsu.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #69
The information was given to ISHH by "Soke" Ted Petit.
Church was not very proficient. No one really understands why he was given any crdential sby Kuniba. Although he never was part of the Seishinkai in the U.S., he was known by Mr. Baillargeon (the U.S. Director) and other seniors. All had a very low opinion of him.
Same goes for Reidener. He was a Shodan and promoted himself to 10th Dan.
Church was not very proficient. No one really understands why he was given any crdential sby Kuniba. Although he never was part of the Seishinkai in the U.S., he was known by Mr. Baillargeon (the U.S. Director) and other seniors. All had a very low opinion of him.
Same goes for Reidener. He was a Shodan and promoted himself to 10th Dan.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #70
I asked on e-budo where there is another active thread about Church and Reidner.
It seems that Guy Power never has and never will recognize anyone as 'soke' of Kamishin Ryu or any such modern art.
The idea/title of Soke goes back centuries and is not really used in Japan any more. The only was to become a Soke is through inheritance and it has to be a koryu (ancient Japanese school). Kamishin Ryu, no matter how you look at, is not Japanese. So therefore Church can not be "soke".
Same goes for Dr. Soke Reidner. His Shiho Karano Ryu was created in the U.S. by him. It is a new art, he is not Japanese and the art is not Japanese. Likewise, he is not Soke. It is just his ego, that burns brighter than his red dogi, that drives him to use thit title in order to build himself up to the same mythic proportions as the ancient masters.
It seems that Guy Power never has and never will recognize anyone as 'soke' of Kamishin Ryu or any such modern art.
The idea/title of Soke goes back centuries and is not really used in Japan any more. The only was to become a Soke is through inheritance and it has to be a koryu (ancient Japanese school). Kamishin Ryu, no matter how you look at, is not Japanese. So therefore Church can not be "soke".
Same goes for Dr. Soke Reidner. His Shiho Karano Ryu was created in the U.S. by him. It is a new art, he is not Japanese and the art is not Japanese. Likewise, he is not Soke. It is just his ego, that burns brighter than his red dogi, that drives him to use thit title in order to build himself up to the same mythic proportions as the ancient masters.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #71
It seems that Kamishinkan/Pastor Collins
(http://www.christianmartialarts.com/more.html) holds the title of Shihan-Renshi in the Kamishin Ryu organization.
Since when is Shihan-Renshi a proper Japanese title? It seems a bit ridiculous to me.
But here is a question that goes to the heart of not only this, but this whole idea of "christian martial arts" in general.
Is it proper for a pastor to be part of such nonsense? Not that they can't practice martial arts. But is it proper to be part of such a hoax? Shouldn't a pastor be held to a high standard of honesty?
Also, shouldn't a pastor be humble like Christ was? It is not only odd, but dangerous, for a pastor to be so ego driven that they have to adopt these ridiculous titles and tell such ridiculous stories.
My next question to the pastor is this: If Jesus were here today, would be be calling himself soke or shihan-renshi to try and impress the kids so they come to his Sunday School too?
I'm sorry. One more question for the pastor:
On your Christian Martial Arts Association web site it says:
"The United States only Certified, Registered Christian Martial Arts Association" Who are you registered with? God?
Does God not resognize any of the other Christian martial arts organizations?
(http://www.christianmartialarts.com/more.html) holds the title of Shihan-Renshi in the Kamishin Ryu organization.
Since when is Shihan-Renshi a proper Japanese title? It seems a bit ridiculous to me.
But here is a question that goes to the heart of not only this, but this whole idea of "christian martial arts" in general.
Is it proper for a pastor to be part of such nonsense? Not that they can't practice martial arts. But is it proper to be part of such a hoax? Shouldn't a pastor be held to a high standard of honesty?
Also, shouldn't a pastor be humble like Christ was? It is not only odd, but dangerous, for a pastor to be so ego driven that they have to adopt these ridiculous titles and tell such ridiculous stories.
My next question to the pastor is this: If Jesus were here today, would be be calling himself soke or shihan-renshi to try and impress the kids so they come to his Sunday School too?
I'm sorry. One more question for the pastor:
On your Christian Martial Arts Association web site it says:
"The United States only Certified, Registered Christian Martial Arts Association" Who are you registered with? God?
Does God not resognize any of the other Christian martial arts organizations?
kamishinkan
Green Belt
Ahhh, the attacks become personal, I am a pastor and I have tried to be as humble and respectful of all those posting even the gentleman who has tried over and over again to tear me and the art I study down.
The CMAA is not MY website, I was with the CMAA for a short time and decided to leave the organization. The NAME (CMAA) is registered. I do not know any more than that.
The thought that Church sensei was not proficient as a martial artist and Kuniba just GAVE him a Godan and Shihan titles in Karate and Seishinkai Jujutsu is stupid to say the least.
The term Soke is only used for inherited Koryu......Please tell that to the late Okuyama Sensei of Hakko Ryu and Hayashi Sensei of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu, both used the title and were founders of their own arts.
I am tired of the shots at me. I thought this was a friendly discussion of the martial arts. I will not be posting to this anymore, I am tired of the personal attacks.
The CMAA is not MY website, I was with the CMAA for a short time and decided to leave the organization. The NAME (CMAA) is registered. I do not know any more than that.
The thought that Church sensei was not proficient as a martial artist and Kuniba just GAVE him a Godan and Shihan titles in Karate and Seishinkai Jujutsu is stupid to say the least.
The term Soke is only used for inherited Koryu......Please tell that to the late Okuyama Sensei of Hakko Ryu and Hayashi Sensei of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu, both used the title and were founders of their own arts.
I am tired of the shots at me. I thought this was a friendly discussion of the martial arts. I will not be posting to this anymore, I am tired of the personal attacks.
OP
kenpojujitsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #73
"The NAME (CMAA) is registered"
Registered where? In "the Lamb's book of Karate"?
it just keeps getting more ridiculous.
Registered where? In "the Lamb's book of Karate"?
it just keeps getting more ridiculous.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Mod Note:
This thread is locked pending Admin review.
-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-
This thread is locked pending Admin review.
-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-
- Status
