Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[wckf92]

The forms are entirely abstract.

CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power.

Yep...correct!

 

[PiedmontChun]

In my WT training, our Chun Kiu has the stance turning exactly 45 degrees and no more in some spots and then the stance turns a total of 90 degrees to square the upper body with the line of movement using the waist rotation in order to complete that 90 degree turn.

This might not be super articulate, but I'm at a loss as to why its beneficial to turn the waist and NOT pivot or turn the feet. There are times that if your reaction is not fast enough then you might turn more with the waist than using your feet to stay facing your opponent or to deflect pressure, but I can't see how that is nearly as stable. The way I was taught, any point in a turn can become a step to the side, back, or to circle around the opponent's leg if needed. But turning at the waist and just leaving your feet and knees contorted is kinda of comitting to a dead end street? Like a cul-de-sac with no way to get out other than the way you came, versus a street with side streets or other avenues to travel.

 

[Danny T]

You're all talking about applying this and it being situational how you pivot, but do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still? That is how this is presented and how you're discussing it, like chi-sau in a fight.

For me, that's not at all what CK shifting is for. We don't take movements from the forms and try to apply them as-is in fighting. The forms are entirely abstract. Shifting in CK is done vigorously with sudden stops to purposely test our rotation and balance, even to the point of almost over rotating or losing balance, which are common mistakes beginners make and what we want to cause our opponents to do. And this is testing ourselves in solo training, not even dealing with a partner or opponent yet. Keeping the feet planted or shifting one foot at a time to maintain stability takes the testing out of it and is just considering applications.

CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power. But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.

LFJ, I agree with you here and I am not talking about standing squared. I am talking about training and then using the training in a fight situation. We are using the video as the example for 'training'. Learning; which is what form work is about. Application is another thing.
As to the forms being entirely abstract. Naw they certainly present abstract ideas but much of the physical presentation within the forms are not. How those presentations are utilized are abstract.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You're all talking about applying this and it being situational how you pivot, but do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still?

I didn't take it this way. Fights are fluid so there will be a lot of movement and I can't see a fighting system assuming that the opponent will stay still. I think many people misinterpret the forms and in such will actually try to fight the same way that they do when they are doing the form. In reality the forms make it easier to understand the technique. Once you learn technique then comes the challenge of actually learning how to use it in a real fight situation which is almost never the same as the form.

From my experience with Jow Ga Kung fu (I don't take wing chun) the idea is to have a rooted stance before applying the technique. If the stance isn't rooted then you run the risk of having the force of the technique push you away from the person instead of hurting the person. I can only assume that it's similar with WC. If the WC student isn't rooted then the technique will move the student. In the video below you can see how the WC person is not rooted when the techniques art thrown. Watch his feet. Now watch the feet of the other fighter and you'll notice that he's more rooted.

even to the point of almost over rotating or losing balance, which are common mistakes beginners make

I agree. This is where the ability to quickly root comes into play.

But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.

I agree with this 100% many kung fu students assume that the attacks are stationary. The majority of the attacks should be done when rooted, but rooted could mean staying there for 10 seconds or being there for only 1 second and then move.

I'm not sure if this would help for WC students but practice by moving around first, then quickly root for the attack, then move again. By move I mean move both feet from the current location to another location and not just pivoted in one spot.

 

[geezer]

...CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power. But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.

True.

 

[LFJ]

LFJ, I agree with you here and I am not talking about standing squared. I am talking about training and then using the training in a fight situation. We are using the video as the example for 'training'. Learning; which is what form work is about. Application is another thing.

The OP says this video shows how he would apply it in certain situations, and demonstrates a scenario where he's standing squared and has an attacker come punching at him and all he needs to do is shift or turn his waist...

The video just posted by JowGaWolf may be sloppy, but it's a good example of the chaos of a fight. When, in such chaos, would you be concerned with pivoting one foot at a time to shift your body to one side or the other? Or when would you be standing still and only turning your waist?

I think you'll find when someone is really attacking you, you will be a lot more mobile and never be pivoting like that. So, I don't see the point in giving it such detailed focus in training.

What one needs is a mobile stance able to maintain rooting while in constant motion to deliver knockout or stopping force at any moment.

So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?

 

[LFJ]

As to the forms being entirely abstract. Naw they certainly present abstract ideas but much of the physical presentation within the forms are not. How those presentations are utilized are abstract.

They are abstract to me in that the actions are not complete and can't be applied as-is, meaning they can't be 1:1 application ideas. They are often only training tools used to develop certain behaviors and attributes such as balance, timing, synchronicity of upper and lower body movements, etc.. They show us the limits of our actions, like how far we should rotate or raise or extend the elbows in relation to our own structure and the centerline, not in consideration of set responses to certain attacks.

I understand that is not the common approach in many WC lineages. Many say one action can be applied in many ways against various attacks, and that makes it "abstract". But that's still dealing in application-based thinking and is not quite what "abstract" or "conceptual" means... to me anyway.

 

[JPinAZ]

Danny, does your WC have any connection to WT? I ask because the WT people are the only ones I've run into who strongly preach the one foot at a time approach to turning,

Good point you brought up! moving the feet separately makes good sense to me!
In HFY, when we 'turn'/change facing, we also typically do it one foot at a time - and we are not even from Ip Man lineage . One difference I see is that we also pick the feet up/turn the knee in when turning via our Yung Yee Ma footwork. One instance where we use this type of footwork would be to shift the line and dissipate incoming energy that is starting to disrupt our COG and/or structure. This also facilitates power generation from the hips. Another use is to change our facing in relation to our opponent (right-to-left or left-to-right).

This LYM footwork allows us to not have to give up structural space or lose our desired 50/50 neutrality for our self centerline and COG. We move one foot at a time so we don't lose our reference point and the pressure from our opponent tells us where our feet should go vs. trying to stand in one place and still risk getting overpowered.
So, We also don't typically shift/pivot in place on our center like futsau is showing when dissipating energy. This is mainly due to the fact that if the energy is already having an influence on my center and/or structure enough that I have to move in the first place, it doesn't make any sense to keep my center in place and allow the energy to keep on effecting our COG. This would just lead to being in the same bad spot as I started and is completely missing the point of why I'm changing the line in the first place!

Heh, as I mentioned already, while we always try to keep 50/50 weight distribution at all times, even in the LT clips, while not moving his foot position, he's still smart enough to get out of the way by leaning as he shifts!

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?

You are correct it does limit mobility. I think this is one of the cases where the stance is shown and people make the assumption that they are supposed to do this stance through the entire fight. For example, I wouldn't try to do a cat stance through an entire fight. A kung fu cat stance only has good forward mobility, ok backward mobility, and no side-to-side mobility. The cat stance in my style of kung fu is similar to what I've seen in the videos where the WC practitioner pivots on one leg meaning making the supporting leg rooted. When one leg is rooted like that then the mobility is greatly decreased. Like Danny T touched on. There's a time and place for the stance and the technique.

 

[Danny T]

The OP says this video shows how he would apply it in certain situations, and demonstrates a scenario where he's standing squared and has an attacker come punching at him and all he needs to do is shift or turn his waist...

Agreed. That's the situation he show and how he would use the way he pivots or doesn't.

The video just posted by JowGaWolf may be sloppy, but it's a good example of the chaos of a fight. When, in such chaos, would you be concerned with pivoting one foot at a time to shift your body to one side or the other?

Nope. Wouldn't be concerned about it at all for if needed, due to the training and practice I have done, it would simply happen. Just as if I were to punch as a boxer using a jab/straight right/left hook combination I would pivot one foot at a time.

I think you'll find when someone is really attacking you, you will be a lot more mobile and never be pivoting like that. So, I don't see the point in giving it such detailed focus in training.

I think if you would view the video in slow motion you will see several points where feet are being pivoted one at a time.

What one needs is a mobile stance able to maintain rooting while in constant motion to deliver knockout or stopping force at any moment.

Yep.

So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?

We simply disagree.
Keep sparring empty hands and vs weapons. You may one day see the practicality. If not, it's ok.

 

[LFJ]

Nope. Wouldn't be concerned about it at all for if needed, due to the training and practice I have done, it would simply happen.

What I mean is pivoting one foot at a time versus same time or not at all. There is a lot of debate in training, but no one is going to be standing and pivoting like that in fighting anyway.

I think if you would view the video in slow motion you will see several points where feet are being pivoted one at a time.

I didn't see even one point where any such pivoting was done. You saw familiar footwork in that clip? That's how you move?

Keep sparring empty hands and vs weapons. You may one day see the practicality. If not, it's ok.

So no answer then? I'm just wondering where outside your training one would use this footwork. Are there any videos online of sparring empty hands and vs weapons that show it working?

 

[jhexx]

Geezer; not connected to WT. Our linage is Jiu Wan from Foshan. According to my Sifu (Francis Fong) Jiu Wan beginning at the age of 8 first learned from his uncle Jiu Jow who learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Jiu Wan trained directly under Chan Wah Shun and is where he met Ip Man. Both were in the Police Association in Foshan and became friends. They became associates again when Jiu Wan move to Hong Kong. He trained and taught in Ip's school for a while and then opened his own school about a year afterwards. He and Ip remained friends until Ip's death.

glad to see there are others from Jiu Wan lineage here.

 

[PiedmontChun]

The video just posted by JowGaWolf may be sloppy, but it's a good example of the chaos of a fight. When, in such chaos, would you be concerned with pivoting one foot at a time to shift your body to one side or the other? Or when would you be standing still and only turning your waist?

I think you'll find when someone is really attacking you, you will be a lot more mobile and never be pivoting like that. So, I don't see the point in giving it such detailed focus in training.

What one needs is a mobile stance able to maintain rooting while in constant motion to deliver knockout or stopping force at any moment.

So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?

I would have to disagree. Some would argue that pivoting DOES make one more mobile. I can't count how many times I overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring, only for a subtle pivot / turn on their part to expose my blindside to them and make me feel like I was punching thin air. Being able to shift and change the angle to your advantage when your opponent gives you the opportunity follows perfectly the principles of WC of not using force against force.
Pivoting one foot at a time is a subtlety or nuance that is hard to see when done at speed, but training it that way drills in the concept, for sure. I notice that my Chum Kiu is more stable when I consiously turn 1 foot at a time, so it is reinforcing a good habit in my opinion when trained that way.
The rear weighted leg versus closer to 50/50 is a whole debate on its own. LT/WT folks generally do it the former, myself included, and other's do it the latter. There is diverity of thought within the larger IP MAN family, so to each their own on if its one foot at a time or not and how its weighted. My point is that I DO think that to throw away purposely training something simply because under pressure it might falter is dismisssive though. That is true of everything within an art. Why practice anything with any precision if fighting is chaos?

 

[Danny T]

Why practice anything with any precision if fighting is chaos?

Just go kamikaze.

What I mean is pivoting one foot at a time versus same time or not at all. There is a lot of debate in training, but no one is going to be standing and pivoting like that in fighting anyway.

Do you practice any stances? YJKYM for instance? Why, you aren't going to just stand there and fight that way.
Stances are fleeting, footwork is movement in time. Pivoting is a part of footwork and is utilized when needed. One foot is always grounded: to maintain stability, to push off the ground for force or power etc. But you know this.

I didn't see even one point where any such pivoting was done. You saw familiar footwork in that clip? That's how you move?

What I said was slow the video down and you will see some pivoting of one foot at a time.
Yes I did see some familiar footwork. Also saw a lot of ugly chaotic footwork as well.

So no answer then? I'm just wondering where outside your training one would use this footwork. Are there any videos online of sparring empty hands and vs weapons that show it working?

No answer to how it is used or why. Video yourself sparring. I'm betting there will be times even you will pivot only one foot.

I'm not a video savvy person and I don't spent time searching out specifics to show others what and why.

You know training is one thing, application is another. We do a lot of 8 count burpees and duck walks as well as several other things in training and I can't show you where we use them in fighting either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why practice anything with any precision if fighting is chaos?

So that the reaction will become habit. Like DannyT has stated often, what you do and how you respond is going to depend greatly on the situation. You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted. Never overcommit with an attack. I'm always trying to bait people that I spar with to overcommit because it's much easier to counter an overcommitted attack.

My personal rule is to attack when someone isn't committed and to counter when they commit.

 

[PiedmontChun]

So that the reaction will become habit. Like DannyT has stated often, what you do and how you respond is going to depend greatly on the situation. You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted. Never overcommit with an attack. I'm always trying to bait people that I spar with to overcommit because it's much easier to counter an overcommitted attack.

My personal rule is to attack when someone isn't committed and to counter when they commit.

Haha. My question was very rhetorical, and a bit sarcastic. Sorry if that was not clear and got lost in translation: I DO believe that pivoting is an important part of mobility in WC/WT and I believe that precision training of those movements is crucial since you can only react under pressure with something that has been trained repeatedly. To think about it versus simply react naturally is too act too late.

My example of overcommitting is just me being honest that I train with people better than me, and they use my mistakes against me thru effective turning and footwork. That is good WC/WT! (on their part, and useful for me since it shows me what to work on).

 

[wckf92]

I have learnt the Ip Man forms where it is?

Saying you 'learnt the Ip Man forms' is pretty vague (unless you learned the forms from Yip Man himself?)
Out of curiosity, from whom did you learn Yip Man's forms from? Moy Yat lineage?
And, do you have a video of yourself doing those forms? (specifically, 2nd form?).
Thanks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are many uses for a pivot, the common use is to redirect. Also know that in each of the pivots there is no mobility other than rotation which is what a pivot is in the first place. If you want to beat the pivot then you have to attack towards the rooted leg that is pivoting. If I had to sparr against someone that does WC then I would fake an overcommitted attack with the purpose of identifying which leg he would use to pivot on. Or I would attack heavy on one side as a misdirection so that I could make him pivot on the leg of my choice.

Examples of pivot working as shown in Geezer's videos:
0:33 Mark, 0:56 Mark,

2:40 Mark,

Better examples of Pivots 7:28 too lazy to name the rest but by now it should be clear that pivots work when done at the right time against the right attack.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Haha. My question was very rhetorical

ha ha ha. I got it. It didn't fly over my head. ha ha ha. I only responded the way that I did just in case someone missed it. I've been in a couple of discussions where people really didn't understand of repetitive practice.

My example of overcommitting is just me being honest that I train with people better than me

Overcommitting is really easy to do, it's more of a lack of patience than a mistake. Even the best fighters will overcommitt from time to time. People who seem to like power more than technique tend to be more willing to do it.

If you have the patience to be a counter fighter then you can bait them to overcommit to a block. Feign a punch to the face then kick the leg, Feign a kick to the leg so that they drop their hand with the intent to block it, then punch them in the face. You can also program your opponent. In order to do this throw the same combination 2 or three times, this programs your opponent to expect a certain pattern for an attack. It usually takes 2 repeats for them to naturally respond and assume that the 3rd attack will be the same. Once you feel that are looking for that pattern, switch it up and hit them somewhere else. Patterns of attacks could be, that you lift your foot up before you jab with your right hand. Do it twice to make sure he sees your pattern, then on the third pattern, lift your foot and just kick.

My kung fu brothers gave me the nick name "Pearl Harbor" specifically because I'm always doing things like this.

 

[LFJ]

You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted.

Many things could work against someone who has poor strategy. Doesn't make them good habits.

The problem with pivoting on the balls of the feet one foot at a time and swaying the central axis off line and weighting the rear leg is that if the opponent doesn't overcommit like dumb bull but knows how to reface and chase center, the person pivoting like this will be stuck with no mobility and nowhere to go and be run over.

If I had to sparr against someone that does WC then I would fake an overcommitted attack with the purpose of identifying which leg he would use to pivot on. Or I would attack heavy on one side as a misdirection so that I could make him pivot on the leg of my choice.

Yup, big problem. But to be clear, not all Wing Chun was created equal. My lineage does not pivot like this. We maintain even distribution and are very mobile as if "gliding" as we move, never swaying our center axis and overloading one side. So your strategy would not produce the outcome you're looking for unless you were sparring a particular lineage that does that kind of pivoting.

Better examples of Pivots 7:28 too lazy to name the rest but by now it should be clear that pivots work when done at the right time against the right attack.

Couldn't really see the feet well in those clips, but they didn't show pivoting for the same reason that was discussed in this thread, and the last one looked like just stepping out and around, rather than pivoting and swaying the body to one side as some of these guys are talking about.