Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[Tony Dismukes]

It's the topic of this thread.



Yeah, equally as uh, questionable.

@3:44 in this video he tries to show the pivot and it fails. lol Then he asks the guy to come slowly so he can show what he meant to do, but then tries to cover the goof up by saying "who cares" if he gets knocked out of position so badly. Well, he'd better care if he were really being attacked...

LTWT followers think people are going to go sailing past them if they just pivot and shift their weight over like that. It's clueless noob strategy. Who is going to completely run by like that, besides maybe a drunken idiot? And it becomes a central idea in that system.

Even using simultaneous attacks, it puts you in a bad position where mobility is hampered and posture is vulnerable. Don't forget the attacker has hands too and can change direction seamlessly and take you right over, by striking or grappling. If you think you're going to shift to the side and weight the rear leg and they'll just go sailing by, you're a dreamer.

@7:53 his kicking technique also fails in exactly the same way he criticized another method would. lol

Lastly, the "stance inserting footwork" works maybe on your WT mates, but against a boxer you're stepping right between their arms and into the "pocket", the worst place to be! Good luck getting there, and surviving if you do!

It's much more intelligent to fight their flanks and prevent them from refacing or let them over rotate as you stay squared and fight half a man, rather than having to worry about which side he's going to be punching from as you're moving right up the middle.

When I see strategy like this, I genuinely question the fighting experience of its advocates.

My first-hand experience of Wing Chun is limited, so I have no opinion on the merits of the various lineages and variations of the art. I've seen a number of WC/WT advocates who seem to have solid technique, but I wouldn't know how to recognize their lineage.

That said, I do understand structure and balance. The gentleman doing the demonstration in that particular video has ... issues with both. His basic stance is fundamentally unsound on multiple levels. I don't know if that has anything to do with his lineage or whether it's just an example of someone with no real fight experience developing bad postural habits.

 

[PiedmontChun]

My first-hand experience of Wing Chun is limited, so I have no opinion on the merits of the various lineages and variations of the art. I've seen a number of WC/WT advocates who seem to have solid technique, but I wouldn't know how to recognize their lineage.

That said, I do understand structure and balance. The gentleman doing the demonstration in that particular video has ... issues with both. His basic stance is fundamentally unsound on multiple levels. I don't know if that has anything to do with his lineage or whether it's just an example of someone with no real fight experience developing bad postural habits.

The instructor in the video is SiFu Alex Wallenwein, who is in the Leung Ting, or WT lineage.
Some of the posture is a bit exaggerated, possibly or likely to make a point. Many in that lineage do practice forms / drills with knees heavily bent and the weight sunk and biased to the rear foot. In sparring or even just free practice, the emphasis is less obvious.
As someone from outside WC/WT but a practicioner of another MA, I'm curious on your take since you bring it up- what specifically do you find issue with as far as structure and balance?

 

[Jake104]

Another awesome post...
YOUR BODY IS A UNIT, TRAIN IT LIKE ONE!

You're awesome too! Woohoo, I'm on a roll Yak Sao! Finally out of my slump.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still?

That's my concern as well. Sometime it's better to move out of your opponent's attacking path and lead him into the emptiness. In order to do so, you will need some "footwork" and that means you need to move at least one of your feet from point A to point B.

From a wrestler point of view, to keep both feet parallel is very dangerous when dealing with "double legs" attack. When you stand with one leg forward and one leg backward, if your opponent attacks you with "single leg", you can still play valid defense and counter. There is a good reason that different percentage of weight distribution exits in CMA. The least amount of weight that you can put on your leading leg, the faster that you can pull that leg back when your opponent attacks with "single leg". The "double legs" attack is very difficult to counter and you should try to avoid it as much as possible.

 

[Jake104]

I will allow that most of what is shown as to Chi Sao is presented as this is how to fight. And I disagree with that chi sao is nothing more than an exercise and drilling. Bits and pieces may be use from time to time but it certainly isn't about fighting. It is about feeling and not much more. I've seen several approaches and understand what and why but again it isn't about fighting it is about play their chi sao game.
As to pivoting and footwork we have far more than just standing in YJKYM and pivoting. There is the learning to pivot stage, learning to shift the body stage, there is turning the body from a 50/50 weight distribution to a 90/10, a 80/20, a 70/30/, a 60/40, and to a 50/50 all depending upon what is needed based upon the situation at any one particular point in time. If one needs to step off line and turn into the opponent then that is what we will do.
There is forms and drills. Training and practice. Then there is practical application. What one does with the attributes one has developed. Every situation will be different and require a different response.

I just don't see it that way. If chi sao is nothing more then a drill. Then why are we wasting so much time on something that may or may not work in a fight? I think fighting is all about chi sao. Everything I do in the clinch is chi sao. Chi Sao is my forward energy. Chi sao is my body, chi sao is my wing chun. Otherwise WC is crappy kick boxing. Other arts do chi sao too. They just don't call it chi sao. Problem is chi sao rarely goes beyond "drill" form. People get caught up in mastering a drill instead of transitioning a drill into combat.

 

[Jake104]

I love chi sao! I do chi sao in the rain. I do chi sao on a plane. I do chi sao in a pinch. I do chi sao in the clinch. I do chi sao on a mound. I do chi sao on the ground. I love chi sao that much!

 

[Vajramusti]

I love chi sao! I do chi sao in the rain. I do chi sao on a plane. I do chi sao in a pinch. I do chi sao in the clinch. I do chi sao on a mound. I do chi sao on the ground. I love chi sao that much!

-----------------------------------------------------
Dr Seuss would agree
almost to a tee

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The real fight doesn't look like this.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Saying you 'learnt the Ip Man forms' is pretty vague (unless you learned the forms from Yip Man himself?)
Out of curiosity, from whom did you learn Yip Man's forms from? Moy Yat lineage?
And, do you have a video of yourself doing those forms? (specifically, 2nd form?).
Thanks.

Long discussing..I have learnt Chum kiu form Moy Yat lineage and also Lee Moy Shan school which comes from the same place, but I have a lot of Wing Chun friends and have also learnt, exchanged a lot of information their version also which include Augustine Fong lineage, William Cheung lineage, Pan Nam lienage and others. But I just do all my forms the same way. Its based on the Fut Sao system and Ip man lines and my own ideas. I dont have a video of me doing the other versions of chum kiu I could do it if you really want to see it. I really don't practice all those other versions anymore.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I would like to know what flaws you see with using the waist as presented by the OP. I'm not in argument, just curious just in case that this flaw exists in Jow Ga.

if there is a flaw then all the internal arts must be flawed to because they all turn the waist like that. look at push hand practice as one example..they yield with the waist yet maintain their rooting without moving their feet. this is very common and very basic training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The real fight doesn't look like this.

They have some really good leg strength and good knees.

 

[yak sao]

You're awesome too! Woohoo, I'm on a roll Yak Sao! Finally out of my slump.

I am very proud at this moment.

 

[LFJ]

It is about feeling and not much more.

Whoa... WSL used to say sensitivity is a byproduct of the training, but not the goal. There is feeling simply because we are in (mutual) contact during chi-sau, but that's not what we're focusing on or trying to develop. Why not? Well, because if you've ever had a proper fight or spar with someone who knows how to punch, you'll know that there is no prolonged arm contact at speed. There is no chance to attach to your opponent's punch and feel his energy and determine your next moved based on what tactile information you get from his arm. It'll already be too late. It's not realistic, so that can't be the focus of the training. To me, you have taken a mere byproduct in a drilling platform as almost the sole purpose and goal of training.

 

[LFJ]

From a wrestler point of view, to keep both feet parallel is very dangerous when dealing with "double legs" attack. When you stand with one leg forward and one leg backward, if your opponent attacks you with "single leg", you can still play valid defense and counter. There is a good reason that different percentage of weight distribution exits in CMA. The least amount of weight that you can put on your leading leg, the faster that you can pull that leg back when your opponent attacks with "single leg". The "double legs" attack is very difficult to counter and you should try to avoid it as much as possible.

Yes, that is another danger to the LTWT footwork. Their knees are kept pretty close together and feet narrow in the forward stance, and when pivoting to the side from a neutral stance their feet are parallel with the rear leg overloaded. Very susceptible to single and double legs.

Now, what is done in the system I train is keep a side stance without committing a lead leg until in range to enter. First of all because we don't know yet which side we will attack, but the stance allows for quick entry from either side and is very mobile. By not committing a lead leg too early, it's also not presented for low Thai kicks (which only kill worse on a limp leg) or leg shoots.

Once the opponent "shows us" which side to attack, we enter with a lead leg and fight their flanks, maintaining a squared body able to attack from both sides equally and turn only to face the target. We never turn to avoid the target, or worse, allow them to turn us! As some do. Allowing us to turn you would only facilitate the accomplishment of our goal.

 

[Danny T]

Chi Sao is the drill for learning sticking and feeling. Directing and countering pressure but it is not fighting.
Chi Sao is not fighting it is drilling... And I agree people master the drill even to the point of developing tricks that work only in the Chi Sao platform. Chi Sao is a great drill but again it is not fighting.

It is like plummeling drills for wrestling just at a different range. Plummeling is an important drill for wrestling but there is far more to wrestling. Same with wing chun and chi sao. It is an important drill but there is far more to wing chun.

Several years ago had a very nice lady, 35-40 yrs come in to train for a couple of weeks while being in our area.
Have been training for approx 5 years at the time. Her chi sao was excellent. Very impressive. And she was fun to have my students work with..., until we actually sparred. Her chi sao was very good but as soon as real punches were thrown at her she could not handle them. However, when in a clinch she faired much better but still was unable to handle any real pressure. Why? Because all she did was Chi Sao. She didn't know how to fight!.

I just don't see it that way.

Drill - A task or exercise for teaching or developing a skill by repetition: Chi Sao is a drill. It teaches several

If chi sao is nothing more then a drill. Then why are we wasting so much time on something that may or may not work in a fight?

Something that may or may not work in a fight. Are you saying Chi Sao makes one infallible in a fight?

People get caught up in mastering a drill instead of transitioning a drill into combat.

Agreed.

Whoa... WSL used to say sensitivity is a byproduct of the training, but not the goal. There is feeling simply because we are in (mutual) contact during chi-sau, but that's not what we're focusing on or trying to develop. Why not?

Ok, what are we focusing on and what are we trying to develop in your opinion?
I am of the opinion we are developing several things as a byproduct of the drilling and it is all based upon feel. Why else would we be in constant contact with each other?

Well, because if you've ever had a proper fight or spar with someone who knows how to punch, you'll know that there is no prolonged arm contact at speed.

Must be I've never been in a 'proper' fight nor have sparred with anyone who knows how to punch.

There is no chance to attach to your opponent's punch and feel his energy and determine your next moved based on what tactile information you get from his arm. It'll already be too late. It's not realistic, so that can't be the focus of the training.

Must have never sparred with any good wrestlers or grapplers either; no prolonged contact there.

To me, you have taken a mere byproduct in a drilling platform as almost the sole purpose and goal of training.

No, there are other byproducts as well and all are based upon feel.

 

[LFJ]

Ok, what are we focusing on and what are we trying to develop in your opinion?

You and I train very different systems. So it's not just "in my opinion". It's "in my system". "We" obviously don't share the same focus.

When you focus on feeling, you turn the drills into offense and defense thinking. As if you're going to stick to punches being thrown at you and use feeling to determine your next move. Anyone who fights a good boxer will quickly realize how absurd an idea that is. It works in your chi-sau only because you have made mutual pre- and prolonged arm contact.

For me, chi-sau is not about feeling and offense and defense. We aren't working against each other, but with each other. We work drills to help each other correct errors in position, alignment, structure, balance, etc.. It's cooperation, role playing, to develop and condition our movements. The faster we go the more we see freezing, over- or under reaction, loss of balance, bad footwork, etc.. So we work together to help each other check and correct these common errors that come out in free fighting under stress.

It's nothing to do with sticking and feeling. Sensitivity is merely a byproduct of the drilling platform because we are in contact, but there are drills we do specifically to train not to stick and try to feel; errors that will get you hit if you try it against speeding punches being thrown at you.

I am of the opinion we are developing several things as a byproduct of the drilling and it is all based upon feel. Why else would we be in constant contact with each other?

Firstly, to exchange force in such a way that we both develop elbow and lower body connection for punching power. We do not fight with two arms in parallel extension, but do so in chi-sau drilling so that each partner learns to avoid upper body rotation which opens up gaps and opportunities to be flanked in free fighting, and learns coordination and alignment for striking.

The pun-sau structure is like training wheels for alignment and such. Ultimately, your mindset must not be offense and defense like fighting or competing at this stage, which is what happens when you focus on feeling and what to do when you sense this or that. We fight with a lead and rear hand and don't try to stick to and feel arms as they are flying at us at lightning speed. That is only a theory worked out in chi-sau with the wrong focus (from the pov of my lineage), and will not work against serious punchers.

 

[yak sao]

LTWT does not stand with a certain leg forward. We are out of opponent's range in YGKYM and wait for them to come into range so that we can intercept their lead limb, whether leg or arm.

 

[yak sao]

It's much more intelligent to fight their flanks and prevent them from refacing or let them over rotate as you stay squared and fight half a man, rather than having to worry about which side he's going to be punching from as you're moving right up the middle.

We are not taught to go toe to toe with a boxer any more than you are. We prefer to fight their flank.

 

[LFJ]

LTWT does not stand with a certain leg forward.

Then why show the emptiness of the lead leg against leg kicks? Just to convince people of footwork ideas you don't use? Obviously, you'd be in kicking range with a lead leg for that to be an issue and for you to need this function.

We are not taught to go toe to toe with a boxer any more than you are. We prefer to fight their flank.

Then why do you have this "stance inserting footwork"? You reckon you will know whether or not someone knows how to box when things suddenly go down and you try to stick yourself between their legs? You also can't fight someone's flank when you step directly down the middle between their legs...

 

[yak sao]

Then why show the emptiness of the lead leg against leg kicks? Just to convince people of footwork ideas you don't use? Obviously, you'd be in kicking range with a lead leg for that to be an issue and for you to need this function.

When we step in to intercept, we do not weight the front leg so that we can avoid a sweep and/or change direction if needed. It also makes the lead leg readily available for kicking as we come in.